what are the real problems

[Harald Tveit Alvestrand]

--On fredag, mai 23, 2003 11:15:28 -0400 Eric Rosen <erosen at cisco.com> 
wrote:

> Harald> if, somehow,  we came to the  point where we split  the IETF
>> between "those  who  are   on  a  mission  to  protect   the
>> users  against exploitation by the vendors" and "those who are on
>> a mission to help the vendors  exploit the  users", I'd
>> reluctantly  have to  join the first camp.
>
> Any suggestion that if  you're not in one of these camps  you must be in
> the other would indeed be useless demagoguery.

thanks - we have a consensus on that point at least!

> As  long as the  IESG asserts  the right  to make  decisions that  go
> beyond issues of technical quality and correctness, we have a problem.

unfortunately I don't believe we can separate the world that neatly into 
"technical" and "non-technical" issues.

I believe that the *IETF* has a duty to speak to issues that concern the 
impact of our standards on the real world - RFC 1984, the "crypto is good, 
bad crypto is bad" document, has very little to do directly with either 
technical quality or correctness.

Quoting from draft-ietf-problem-process-00 (ok, it's quoting me :-) on IETF 
core values:

    "Cares for the Internet"

    As its name implies, the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)
    focuses on Internet-related activities.  We care about the
    Internet, and our standards work and operational activities are
    intended to improve the utility, scalability and availability of
    the Internet.

    The Internet isn't value-neutral, and neither is the IETF.  We want
    the Internet to be useful for communities that share our commitment
    to openness and fairness.  We embrace technical concepts such as
    decentralized control, edge-user empowerment and sharing of
    resources, because those concepts resonate with the core values of
    the IETF community. These concepts have little to do with the
    technology that's possible, and much to do with the technology that
    we choose to create.

    The IETF community also cares about making the Internet model a
    viable business proposition.  People who choose to offer Internet
    products and services that fit with our core values should be able
    to do so with maximum benefit and minimum amount of fuss.

    The IETF community wants the Internet to succeed because we believe
    that the existence of the Internet, and its influence on economics,
    communication and education, will help us to build a better human
    society.

The IESG has absolutely no business going beyond the IETF community's 
consensus on these issues. I believe consensus on these issues has a very 
clear core, but gets very fuzzy when trying to apply it to specific 
instances; the rambunctious debate that led to the publication of RFC 2804 
(the "Raven" RFC on wiretapping) is only a recent example.

I believe the IESG has tried to find the best way forward within the 
mandate given it by the IETF community as well as it has been able to see 
it. It may very well have misjudged (it would be a miracle if it never 
did). But I do believe it has tried faithfully.

               Harald