"trouble maker"

James Seng jseng at pobox.org.sg
Mon Jun 23 07:04:59 CEST 2003

According to the charter of this group at, the group are looking at the 
problems with "the ways IETF operates". This is not limited to structure 
and processes only.

(is this an example of Problem 2.1 Participants in the IETF do not share 
a common understanding of its mission?)

For wordings, I proposed to add a sub section to 2.6, as follows:

2.6.1 Vocal individual have ability to stall the rough consensus 
building process

In some working groups, a vocal individual could stall the working group 
progress for many months or indefinately by repeatively re-opening 
closed issues. This, coupled with the threat with appeal on technical 
and process ground, effectively prevented the working group chair to 
declare a rough consensus on the group.

-James Seng

Melinda Shore wrote:
>>>For those of us who have chair IETF WG, I am sure we have encountered, 
>>>one time or another, members of the group whom we considered "trouble 
>>The flip side of this is the WG that just won't get it -
>>no matter how valid the issues that are raised, the group
>>brands the individual a "trouble maker" and refuses to do
>>anything about them other than to try to marginalize him
>>or her.
> I've certainly seen both happen, both within the IETF and
> elsewhere.  But this working group is focused on identifying
> problems with IETF structures and processes, and it seems to
> me that the issues that both of you are raising have to do
> with decision-making and dispute resolution, two areas where
> I believe we've got some really serious problems.  Does
> anyone feel like proposing some specific text for the draft?
> Melinda

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