Change Request Number 2009-012

ISO639-3 at sil.org ISO639-3 at sil.org
Thu Nov 19 20:49:53 CET 2009


Hello All,

I have cc'd the list in light of the discussion that has taken place there 
already.

CE Whitehead wrote:
>Just a quick question regarding Change Request Number 2009-012
>Is there any way that Walliser German (Wallisertitsch),  and Walser 
>German can be handled together?  Walser German has an ethnologue code 
[wae].
>Is there a need being expressed to distinguish Walliser from Walser 
German?
>That's the only case that a separate subtag is in order. If a separate 
>subtag is not in order, why not use the ethnologue code as it is not 
>currently being used as a language subtag?


I asked that question of the submitter (whether the two should be 
considered the same language) before the proposal reached its current 
formal shape and state. This was his reply:

In the 12th and 13th century some people from the the Valley "Wallis"
in Switzerland have emigrated into Austria, Italy, Germany, and many
other places. They have preserved a very archaic form of the
Walliser-German. I would say that a person from Wallis would not
understand a person who speak Walser-German today. So Walser-German
dialects are earlier branches of the Walliser-German.

After the emigration of the Walser from the Valley Wallis, the
language have changed over the years. Now we have a group of Walser
dialects and a group of Walliser-German dialects that are similar but
different in the vocabulary and pronunciation.

Today we have 6 main dialects of Walliser-German in Wallis. They all
understand each other and are very similar, but they have some
differences in the pronunciation and in some parts of the vocabulary.
The 5th, Lötschentaler-Walliser-German is the one which differs the
most from the others, because the native speakers lived in a
side-valley. It was very difficult to get in the Lötschental in past
times.

1. Gomer-Walliser-German: The words in this form of the dialect have a
lot of "ö"s in it. Example: "Böm" (German > Baum). In other areas they
are saying "Böim" in which you hear more the "i" and not the "ö". The
main difference is a vocal shift.
2. Briger-Walliser-German: This is the dialect the most people speak
actually. It is the most neutral because the territory is located
almost in the middle.
3. Saaser-Walliser-German: Similar to the form spoken in Zermatt, but
not so melodic. They have a lot of vocabulary you not find in other
regions.
4. Zermatter-Walliser-German: This form of the dialect has it main
difference in the pronunciation, which is very melodic.
5. Lötschentaler-Walliser-German: The most archaic form available in
Wallis. It's something between the archaic Walser-German and the clean
and clear Briger-Walliser-German. They have also a lot of special
vocabulary.
6. Raron-Walliser-German: This form of the dialect make a lot of use
of the vocal "e". Example: "Ches" (German > Käse). The most people in
Wallis would say "Chäs" instead. The people in Raron make an extensive
exchange of the vocal "ä" and replace it with "e".

This six forms can be sorted in two main groups.

1. East of Brig : Briger-Walliser-German, Gomer-Walliser-German
2. West of Brig : Saaser-Walliser-German, Zermatter-Walliser-German,
Lötschentaler-Walliser-German, Raroner-Walliser-German

For translation and language recognition purpose it would be an
overkill to generate 5 or 6 language codes, because they are to
similar and the people living in this region would not differ in these
6 sub-dialects if you would ask them. So one code for Walliser-German
will be sufficient. The translation team will release some guidelines
in time. The form of the dialect found in Brig is one of the most
neutral and is predestined for translation purpose.


The submitter's opening paragraph above appears to disagree  with the 
statement in the exerpt from the German Wikipedia:
>Speaking purely linguistically, there are no clear differences between
>the dialects in the German-speaking part of Wallis and those in
>settlements of Walsers who emigrated from the Wallis in the 13th and
>14th centuries and who settled in numerous places in the Alp.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walliserdeutsch#Walliserdeutsch_und_Walserdeutsch

in regard to the extent of the differences.

(Thank you, Phillip, for the link and for the translation)

The submitter and I also discussed whether Walliser German should be 
considered within the scope of Swiss German [gsw] (as is assumed in the 
English wikipedia article on Walliser German). The submitter maintained 
that this would be incorrect, as well. Please note that the English 
article on Walser German incorrectly states that the ISO 639-2 code 
element is [gsw] and the 639-3 code element is [wae]. That is not true; 
the code elements represented by [gsw] and [wae] are siblings within the 
standard, but it just happens that [gsw] is also contained within ISO 
639-2. Walser German has no representation in ISO 639-2 below the 
collective code element level. In both cases, the "parent" in ISO 639 is 
[gmw] West Germanic Languages in ISO 639-5, or the next higher node, [gem] 
Germanic languages, in both ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5.

I am giving this background to clarify that the submitter and I considered 
these questions, and he did answer them. That said, it is quite possible 
that a separate code element for Walliser German is not the best approach. 


Thanks, and please keep discussing, as long as this may be considered 
within the scope of this list. Otherwise, please send your comments or 
questions to me directly.

-Joan

Joan Spanne
ISO 639-3/RA
SIL International
7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
Dallas, TX 75236
ISO639-3 at sil.org
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