"Adult supervision"

[Bound, Jim]

I believe John's mail points to another definite problem to record:

The IETF hiearchy of order needs to be managed, not doing this well
creates chaos and develops perception that a specific hiearchy is to
blame, when the fault can be at each layer from a lack of management.
We require better management tools and processes.

/jim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: john.loughney at nokia.com [mailto:john.loughney at nokia.com] 
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:58 PM
> To: moore at cs.utk.edu; Bound, Jim
> Cc: problem-statement at alvestrand.no; charliep at iprg.nokia.com; 
> harald at alvestrand.no
> Subject: RE: "Adult supervision"
> 
> 
> Keith,
> 
> > working groups need to be populated with competent, experienced 
> > individuals working groups need to stick within their 
> charters working 
> > groups need to be responsible for making sure that their work  fits 
> > the requirements for the document level that they're requesting  
> > (proposed standard or whatever), including making sure that  their 
> > work does not interfere with other interests or that reasonable  
> > compromises are worked out working groups need to adhere to process 
> > and ensure openness/fairness working groups need to operate in a 
> > disciplined enough fashion to produce  reasonably complete, good 
> > quality work within a reasonable timeframe working groups 
> need to be 
> > able to be trusted to do these things independently
> 
> Speaking as a WG chair, I would say the above are reasonable 
> points. Also, I'd definately appreciate having more support 
> from experienced IETFer's (including IESG & IAB members).  
> Its a little difficult trying to know everything, so having 
> participation by people who've been through the process a few times.
> 
> > it's when working groups fail to do these things that 
> people (not just 
> > in
> > IESG) say that the groups need "adult supervision" - 
> because lack of knowledge
> > and experience, lack of discipline, irresponsibility, and 
> the need for
> > constant supervision are characteristics of children.  
> there's a reason these
> > terms are occasionally used - it's because they sometimes fit.  
> 
> Too often, I've seen quips used in place of real management 
> skills and professional courtesy.  I think this is part of 
> the source of resentment ...
> 
> > maybe we should stop trying to pin all of the blame on IESG 
> and start 
> > seriously looking at how dysfunctionally many of our working groups 
> > operate.
> 
> And maybe we all try acting like adults and focus more on 
> achieving our goals - fixing blame all around probably is not 
> hard; figuring out how to distribute the fixes (including 
> knowing what the fixes are) seems to be a bit more difficult.
> 
> br,
> John
>