appeal mechanisms was Re: Ombuds-process
John C Klensin
john-ietf at jck.com
Mon Jun 30 20:20:29 CEST 2003
--On Monday, 30 June, 2003 10:42 +0900 avri
<avri at apocalypse.org> wrote:
>> I agree with the sentiment, but we've had at least a couple
>> of people who've posted references to appeals that were
>> filed, including appeals that resulted in overturned
> i think looking at the counter-examples will show that the
> folks brave enough and process savvy enough to file these
> appeals where not our average participants.
> yes, there is a process but it takes a lot of energy and savvy
> to use that process.
> there is a process which i would argue is not a mechanism.
> and certainly not a mechanism intended to aid.
> i think it is as much a barrier to appeal as anything else.
> i certainly do not believe the existing process is a mechanism
> that aids people in making appeals.
Mumble. Ok, I have filed an appeal, and it was successful in
getting an action changed. I've also been in the middle of the
IAB review process for several of them. So, with your
indulgence (I don't think this is a problem, and what I'm about
to say isn't a solution), let me explain how to mount a
successful appeal so it isn't a secret any more.
Step 1: Produce a coherent and focused statement about
what is being appealed, what the issues are, and why the
action that was taken was wrong. Leave out any random
musings or accusations about, e.g., the eating habits or
parentage of IESG members and assumptions about their
evil motivations. This is often not an easy writing
job, but it is necessary. For better or worse, if the
IESG and IAB can't figure out what you are complaining
about, or if the appeal seems to be an excuse for a
personal attack, the appeal won't go anywhere unless the
problem is really, obviously, an abuse of judgment or
Step 2: Be absolutely clear about what remedy is desired
and expected, and be sure that it is within the
authority of the AD or IESG to grant and execute.
Leaving the IAB or IESG sitting around and saying to
each other "well, she is probably right, but what on
earth does she want us to do about it?" is not likely to
produce a useful and positive outcome.
That is really all there is to it. Most, if not all, of the
appeals that have dragged out for a long time and then produced
results that either upheld the IESG in some lukewarm way or were
satisfactory to no one showed symptoms consequent of omitting
one of the steps above. If the IAB (or even the IESG) get an
appeal that says "the problem is obvious, you can read all about
it on the following 400 web pages and many megabytes of logs, AD
Jones is a fool and has it in for me, and I'd like you to
un-invent the wheel so I can patent it", that appeal probably
isn't going anywhere even if the underlying issue is a problem
that really does need fixing.
This isn't either a complex procedure or rocket science... it is
just recognizing that presenting a clear case to the IESG and
IAB is much more likely to get careful attention and reasonable
More information about the Problem-statement