Elwyn Davies elwynd at
Fri Jun 27 15:21:39 CEST 2003

I think what you are proposing here differs from what is usually labelled as
an ombuds-process or regarding the powers of an ombuds-person.

In most existing implementations the ombuds-person can only get involved
once the complainant has exhausted all the other avenues of appeal and got
nowhere.  What you seem to be proposing here is a sort of counsellor service
or citizens advice bureau to assist people in asserting their rights when
they aren't sure what to do.

It may be appropriate to have both.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: avri [mailto:avri at]
> Sent: 27 June 2003 01:59
> To: problem-statement at
> Subject: Ombuds-process
> [speaking personally]
> On fredag, jun 27, 2003, at 09:28 Asia/Seoul, Hallam-Baker, Phillip 
> wrote:
> >
> > PS: If you think that the appeals process is not equally broken
> > then why not prove me wrong by making the appeal yourself?
> >
> >
> this brings up the problem that has appeared more in its guise
> as a solution on this list.
> the IETF has no ombuds-process (leaving aside whether it is
> and individual or a group that implements it)
> what i mean is that in cases where, for whatever reason:
>     - language barrier
>     - fear of being ostracized
>     - belief in the process itself being valid
>     - ability to do all the work involved
>     - whatever
> an individual does not take advantage of the process,
> there is no other recourse.  it can be argued that the
> nature of the process make it too difficult a barrier  for
> many to overcome,  sure, in the outside world,  we can
> all be our own lawyers, but how many of us are really
> qualified for such a role.  i think the same logic may
> apply in the IETF - how many of us are qualified to
> represent ourselves in the appeals process.
> and the lack of some entity that one can go to so and
> say 'help me, please' seems to me a problem.
> so the problem may be:
> There is no independent body in the IETF responsible for
> helping individuals who have process issues that may need
> redress.
> (i assume body can mean open body, i.e. person, or several
> people in a group - that is a solution detail)

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