Draft minutes from San Francisco

Spencer Dawkins spencer_dawkins at yahoo.com
Mon Apr 7 10:47:19 CEST 2003

Dear Melinda,

OK, these are mostly nits, and probably mostly MY typos (sorry),
but, since you asked for followup on the list...


--- Melinda Shore <mshore at cisco.com> wrote:
> I've appended a first draft of the minutes from the San
> Francisco meeting.  I've kept them more wordy than usual in
> the interest of keeping as much information available as
> possible.  Many thanks to Spencer Dawkins and Chris Allen
> for their detailed notes, and to Lisa Dussault and Ted
> Hardie for their scribe work in the Jabber chat room.
> Please send corrections, etc., to the mailing list.
> Melinda
> Average number of pages spiked a lot earlier than number of
> RFCs per year. It hasn't changed since early 80s -- about
> 200 RFCs per year, about 25-30 pages per RFC.  Internet
> draft bandwidth has been on steady linear increase since
> 1991.  2001 was down, 2002 was back up.  00-to-RFC delay has
> grown from 6 months to about two years, with a steady
> increase from 1991 to 1998, and then constant since then.

remove at least one "then"

> Harald Alvestrand asked if he'd tried plotting the graph

s/he'd/Henning had/

> using the year the work was started instead of the year the
> work was ended.  Henning said he hadn't.  In response to a
> question from Chris Allen Henning said that many measures
> actually fell off somewhat in 2001, not just these.  Several
> people suggested additional metrics and Henning responded
> that other statistics are also interesting

> Initial Analysis of IESG Review - Eric Rescola
> Overlaps Henning's analysis.  He also experienced low
> signal-noise ratio, but basically correct.

I'm not sure what "basically correct" means - that his findings
matched Henning's findings, that his findings agreed with
preconceptions, ...

> Bob Hinden raised the issue of proposed standards and said
> that there are risks in implementing PS, but they implement
> PS in products all the time.  James replied but the problem
> might be big - not a minor tweak, and Bob pointed out that:


> full standards are really rare.  Bill Sommerfeld: too
> difficult to move past PS - there's no energy after doc is
> stable.

> Dave Crocker said that we have people who consume resources
> but don't help make process.  Ted said that may be true but

s/process/progress/ (I HOPE)

> that isn't the problem he's looking at.  Dave said that may
> be theoretically true, but isn't this a test for working
> groups getting formed?
> Ted answered that working groups do vary over time, but
> stuff does fall out the other end.  There may not be a
> constituency when it does, but that's not what we are
> discussing here.  The problem is that we can't do anything
> that has dependencies unless someone is actually responsible
> for those dependencies.  Spencer Dawkins said that
> dependencies are worse with other SDOs (3GPP).

s/with other SDOs/for other SDOs that depend on IETF to produce
a standard/

> Major process options:
> 	Evolution vs revolution ("nothing left to lose"?)
> 	Granular vs monolithic (can problems be separated?)
> 	Immediate versus ongoing
> 	Grassroots vs top-down

I believe I typed this list, and I remember looking away for a
minute and then guessing what one of the items was. Could you
verify when Margaret provides her slides? Thanks!


> Aaron: should be commended for your altruism and suspected
> for your judgement in taking this role!  However, thedraft

s/thedraft/the draft/

> really bothered me - perceptions start to sound like facts.

> Dave Crocker said that we may not have structural problems,
> but rather management problems.  For instance we sometimes
> choose between two alternatives when we don't have to, and
> sometimes we don't choose when we should.  Christian:
> "Consensus" wasn't in original IETF, but was added in 1992
> as response to top-down decision making.  The way we used to
> solve problems was by building something.  Now we need
> agreement before anyone builds anything.

I thought Christian's statement was questioned on the mailing
list, but don't seem to be able to find the reference now. Maybe
by Dave Crocker? or Marshall Rose?


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