[Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German

Fri Dec 1 03:41:24 CET 2006

It sounds more and more to me that "Alemanic" was simply a mistake; the
description should be "Swiss German" alone, both in 639-2 and 639-3.

Mark

On 11/30/06, Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com <Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com> wrote:
>
>
> Are we reading the same Ethnologue page? Ethnologue seems to include the
> Austrian forms and mentions that certain dialects within this language
> family may not be intelligible to speakers of other dialects.
>
> I'm not trying to be difficult  -- today :) -- and certainly appreciate
> your previous help in sorting out these issues, but I have circulated the
> codes gsw-CH and gsw-AT to a fairly wide audience based on assumptions that
> seem to be fairly well-documented on Ethnologue, my application, ISO's
> approval, and various other resources that lump these regional dialects
> together. Does 639-3 should have a macrolanguage for this? If not, should
> it?
>
> I'd appreciate it if you could review your notes before acting on this
> suggested change.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Karen
>
>
>
>  *Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com>*
>
> 11/30/2006 05:34 PM
>   To
> <Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com>  cc
> Håvard Hjulstad <HHj at standard.no>, <ietf-languages at iana.org>, <
> ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no>, <iso639 at dkuug.dk>, <
> iso639-2 at loc.gov>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <ISOJAC at loc.gov>, LTRU
> Working Group <ltru at ietf.org>, Mark Davis <mark.davis at icu-project.org>, <
> zaiitov at gmail.com>
>  Subject
> RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'll have to check email to be sure, but my recollection was that I had
> suggested to you that the category that was already in the draft table for
> 639-3 might meet your need, and that category was the one coded "gsw" with
> semantics defined in Ethnologue. Definitely the JAC was incorporating into
> part 2 the item in the draft code table for part 3; I believe that all along
> the JAC understood that to have the semantics of "Swiss German" (or
> "Schwyzerdütsch") – certainly I did, but again I'd need to review
> discussions to be more certain.
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com [mailto:Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com] *
> Sent:* Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:51 PM*
> To:* Peter Constable*
> Cc:* Håvard Hjulstad; ietf-languages at iana.org;
> ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no; iso639 at dkuug.dk; iso639-2 at loc.gov;
> ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; LTRU Working Group; Mark Davis;
> zaiitov at gmail.com*
> Subject:* RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I'm not quite sure your take on this represents what was on my ISO
> application. The application draws attention to other regions where Alemanic
> dialects can be found (see: "addinfo" section). I believe the French name
> typically indicates a broader range of dialects as well:
>
> > > This data was submitted on: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 at 19:08:00
> > >
> > > lang_in_eng = Swiss German, Alemanic
> > > lang_in_fre = alémanique
> > > ref_where_found_1 = http://www.ethnologue.com
> > > lang_in_vern = Schwyzerdütsch, Schweizerdeutsch, Schwiizerdütsch,
> > Schwyzertütsch, Schwizertitsch
> > > ref_where_found_2 = ISO 639-3 DIS, http://www.ethnologue.com,
> http://www.wikipedia.com
> > > trans_lit =
> > > evidence = AGICOA, the Association of International Collective
> > Management of Audiovisual Works (Association de Gestion Internationale
> > Collective des Oeuvres Audiovisuelles); 428 documents (audiovisual)
> > >
> > > http://www.agicoa.org
> > > addinfo = 4,215,000 in Switzerland (1990 census). Population total all
>
> > countries: 6,044,000. Central, south central, north central, northeast,
> > and eastern cantons. Also spoken in Austria, France, Germany,
> > Liechtenstein.
>
> Regards,
>
> Karen Broome
> Metadata Systems Designer
> Sony Pictures Entertainment
> 310.244.4384
>
>  *Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com>*
> Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no
>
> 11/30/2006 02:59 PM
>
>   To
> Mark Davis <mark.davis at icu-project.org>  cc
> LTRU Working Group <ltru at ietf.org>, zaiitov at gmail.com, iso639-2 at loc.gov,
> Håvard Hjulstad <HHj at standard.no>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <
> ISOJAC at loc.gov>, ietf-languages at iana.org, iso639 at dkuug.dk  Subject
> RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I can tell you that the intent of "gsw" is specifically Swiss German, and
> that the assumption of having "Alemanic" listed as a name is that some
> people use that label to refer to specifically to Swiss German. If the
> latter assumption is incorrect (which appears to be what Mark is saying,
> then that is a change that the JAC should consider.
>
>
>
> But if Martin's comment is the supporting evidence, then I still find
> Martin's comment to be unclear. It's clear to me what Mark is saying; it's
> not clear to me if Martin is saying the same thing.
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter Constable
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis at gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis*
> Sent:* Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:07 AM*
> To:* Peter Constable*
> Cc:* Håvard Hjulstad; iso639-2 at loc.gov; LTRU Working Group;
> zaiitov at gmail.com; ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee;
> ietf-languages at iana.org; iso639 at dkuug.dk*
> Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>
>
> Alemanic refers to a broader group of dialects than "Swiss German" (aka
> Schwyzertuesch) does. So listing them as it does is problematic; it's like
> listing
>
> ar Arabic; Egyptian Arabic
>
> Personally, I don't care whether it is resolved to be
>
> Alemanic (including Swiss German)
> // which is what 639-3 seems to be pointing to
>
> or
>
> Swiss German (a particular variant of Alemanic)
> // which is what the code (gsw) seems to be pointing to
>
> But we need some clarity as to what is meant by the code.
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/30/06, *Peter Constable* <*petercon at microsoft.com*<petercon at microsoft.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Martin's comment is somewhat vague: varieties spoken on either side of the
> border are very similar, et "as soon as you cross the border it's very
> clearly no longer Swiss German". Does that mean that what is spoken across
> the border is clearly a different language, or that the label "Swiss German"
> is clearly not used?
>
>
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Mark Davis [mailto:*mark.davis at icu-project.org*<mark.davis at icu-project.org>]
> *
> Sent:* Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:00 AM*
> To:* Håvard Hjulstad; *iso639-2 at loc.gov* <iso639-2 at loc.gov>*
> Cc:* LTRU Working Group; *zaiitov at gmail.com* <zaiitov at gmail.com>; ISO 639
> Joint Advisory Committee; *ietf-languages at iana.org*<ietf-languages at iana.org>;
> *iso639 at dkuug.dk* <iso639 at dkuug.dk>*
> Subject:* [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>
>
> ISO 639-2 (on *http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php*<http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php>)
> lists the following:
>
> gsw             Alemani; Swiss German      alémanique
>
> However, there is a "c" missing from Alemanic, and Swiss German is not the
> same as Alemanic: Swiss German is a type of Alemanic, but there are other
> types that are not the same as Swiss German.
>
> Quoting Martin Duerst:
>
> "Yes, Swabian is clearly Alemanic. Alemanic and Swiss German are not
> the same. There are very close similarities between some dialects in
> the north of Switzerland and across the border in Germany, but as
> soon as you cross the border, it's very clearly no longer Swiss
> German. A label such as "Alemanic; Swiss German", assuming that
> both are the same, is clearly wrong. If it's something like
> "Alemanic; includes Swiss German", that would be okay."
>
> Can this be corrected so that it does not continue to mislead people?
>
> Mark Davis
>
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