It sounds more and more to me that "Alemanic" was simply a mistake; the description should be "Swiss German" alone, both in 639-2 and 639-3.<br><br>Mark<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/30/06,
<b class="gmail_sendername"><a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a></b> <<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">Are we reading the same Ethnologue page?
Ethnologue seems to include the Austrian forms and mentions that certain
dialects within this language family may not be intelligible to speakers
of other dialects.</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">I'm not trying to be difficult --
today :) -- and certainly appreciate your previous help in sorting out
these issues, but I have circulated the codes gsw-CH and gsw-AT to a fairly
wide audience based on assumptions that seem to be fairly well-documented
on Ethnologue, my application, ISO's approval, and various other resources
that lump these regional dialects together. Does 639-3 should have a macrolanguage
for this? If not, should it? </font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">I'd appreciate it if you could review
your notes before acting on this suggested change. </font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">Best regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font face="sans-serif" size="2">Karen </font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td width="40%"><span class="q"><font face="sans-serif" size="1"><b>Peter Constable <<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">petercon@microsoft.com
</a>></b>
</font>
</span><p><font face="sans-serif" size="1">11/30/2006 05:34 PM</font>
</p></td><td width="59%">
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">To</font></div>
</td><td><span class="q"><font face="sans-serif" size="1"><<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>></font>
</span></td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">cc</font></div>
</td><td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">Håvard Hjulstad <<a href="mailto:HHj@standard.no" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">HHj@standard.no</a>>,
<<a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ietf-languages@iana.org</a>>, <<a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>>,
<<a href="mailto:iso639@dkuug.dk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">iso639@dkuug.dk</a>>, <<a href="mailto:iso639-2@loc.gov" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
iso639-2@loc.gov</a>>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory
Committee <<a href="mailto:ISOJAC@loc.gov" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ISOJAC@loc.gov</a>>, LTRU Working Group <<a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
ltru@ietf.org</a>>,
Mark Davis <<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>>, <<a href="mailto:zaiitov@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
zaiitov@gmail.com</a>></font>
<div><span class="e" id="q_10f3bba3b6182c28_5"></span></div></td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">Subject</font></div>
</td><td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<table>
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td>
<br></td><td><br></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br></td></tr></tbody></table><div><span class="e" id="q_10f3bba3b6182c28_7">
<br>
<br>
<br><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2">I'll have to check email to
be sure, but my recollection was that I had suggested to you that the category
that was already in the draft table for 639-3 might meet your need, and
that category was the one coded "gsw" with semantics defined in Ethnologue.
Definitely the JAC was incorporating into part 2 the item in the draft
code table for part 3; I believe that all along the JAC understood that
to have the semantics of "Swiss German" (or "Schwyzerdütsch") – certainly
I did, but again I'd need to review discussions to be more certain.</font>
<p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2">Peter</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font>
</p><div align="center">
<p>
</p><hr><p></p></div>
<p><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</a>]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:51 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Peter Constable<b><br>
Cc:</b> Håvard Hjulstad; <a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ietf-languages@iana.org</a>; <a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>;
<a href="mailto:iso639@dkuug.dk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">iso639@dkuug.dk</a>; <a href="mailto:iso639-2@loc.gov" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
iso639-2@loc.gov</a>; ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; LTRU
Working Group; Mark Davis; <a href="mailto:zaiitov@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">zaiitov@gmail.com</a><b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p><font face="sans-serif" size="2"><br>
Peter,</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> <br>
</font><font face="sans-serif" size="2"><br>
I'm not quite sure your take on this represents what was on my ISO application.
The application draws attention to other regions where Alemanic dialects
can be found (see: "addinfo" section). I believe the French name
typically indicates a broader range of dialects as well:</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
<br>
</font><font face="Courier New" size="2"><br>
> > This data was submitted on: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 at 19:08:00<br>
> > <br>
> > lang_in_eng = Swiss German, Alemanic<br>
> > lang_in_fre = alémanique<br>
> > ref_where_found_1 = <a href="http://www.ethnologue.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.ethnologue.com</a><br>
> > lang_in_vern = Schwyzerdütsch, Schweizerdeutsch, Schwiizerdütsch,
<br>
> Schwyzertütsch, Schwizertitsch<br>
> > ref_where_found_2 = ISO 639-3 DIS, <a href="http://www.ethnologue.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.ethnologue.com</a>,
<a href="http://www.wikipedia.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.wikipedia.com</a><br>
> > trans_lit = <br>
> > evidence = AGICOA, the Association of International Collective
<br>
> Management of Audiovisual Works (Association de Gestion Internationale
<br>
> Collective des Oeuvres Audiovisuelles); 428 documents (audiovisual)<br>
> > <br>
> > <a href="http://www.agicoa.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.agicoa.org</a><br>
> > addinfo = 4,215,000 in Switzerland (1990 census). Population
total all <br>
> countries: 6,044,000. Central, south central, north central, northeast,
<br>
> and eastern cantons. Also spoken in Austria, France, Germany, <br>
> Liechtenstein.</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><br>
</font><font face="sans-serif" size="2"><br>
Regards,</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> <br>
</font><font face="sans-serif" size="2"><br>
Karen Broome<br>
Metadata Systems Designer<br>
Sony Pictures Entertainment<br>
310.244.4384</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> <br>
</font>
</p><p>
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td width="19%"><font face="sans-serif" size="1"><b>Peter Constable <<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">petercon@microsoft.com</a>></b>
<br>
Sent by: <a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
<p><font face="sans-serif" size="1">11/30/2006 02:59 PM</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p></td><td width="80%">
<br>
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td width="4%">
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">To</font></div>
</td><td width="95%"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">Mark Davis <<a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">mark.davis@icu-project.org</a>></font>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">cc</font></div>
</td><td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">LTRU Working Group <<a href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ltru@ietf.org</a>>,
<a href="mailto:zaiitov@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">zaiitov@gmail.com</a>, <a href="mailto:iso639-2@loc.gov" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
iso639-2@loc.gov</a>, Håvard Hjulstad <<a href="mailto:HHj@standard.no" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">HHj@standard.no</a>>,
ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <<a href="mailto:ISOJAC@loc.gov" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ISOJAC@loc.gov</a>>, <a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
ietf-languages@iana.org</a>,
<a href="mailto:iso639@dkuug.dk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">iso639@dkuug.dk</a></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td>
<div align="right"><font face="sans-serif" size="1">Subject</font></div>
</td><td><font face="sans-serif" size="1">RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p>
<br>
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td width="50%"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</td><td width="50%"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br></p></td></tr></tbody></table>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><br>
<br>
</font><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"><br>
I can tell you that the intent of "gsw" is specifically Swiss German,
and that the assumption of having "Alemanic" listed as a name is that
some people use that label to refer to specifically to Swiss German. If
the latter assumption is incorrect (which appears to be what Mark is saying,
then that is a change that the JAC should consider.</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2">But if Martin's comment is the
supporting evidence, then I still find Martin's comment to be unclear.
It's clear to me what Mark is saying; it's not clear to me if Martin
is saying the same thing.</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2">Peter Constable</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><div align="center">
<p>
</p><hr><p></p></div>
<p><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<b><br>
Sent:</b> Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:07 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Peter Constable<b><br>
Cc:</b> Håvard Hjulstad; <a href="mailto:iso639-2@loc.gov" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">iso639-2@loc.gov</a>; LTRU Working Group; <a href="mailto:zaiitov@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
zaiitov@gmail.com</a>;
ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; <a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">ietf-languages@iana.org</a>; <a href="mailto:iso639@dkuug.dk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
iso639@dkuug.dk</a><b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Alemanic refers to a broader group
of dialects than "Swiss German" (aka Schwyzertuesch) does. So
listing them as it does is problematic; it's like listing<br>
<br>
ar Arabic; Egyptian Arabic<br>
<br>
Personally, I don't care whether it is resolved to be <br>
<br>
Alemanic (including Swiss German) <br>
// which is what 639-3 seems to be pointing to<br>
<br>
or<br>
<br>
Swiss German (a particular variant of Alemanic)<br>
// which is what the code (gsw) seems to be pointing to<br>
<br>
But we need some clarity as to what is meant by the code. <br>
<br>
Mark </font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">On 11/30/06, <b>Peter Constable</b>
<</font><a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><u>petercon@microsoft.com</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
>
wrote: </font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2">Martin's comment is somewhat
vague: varieties spoken on either side of the border are very similar,
et "as soon as you cross the border it's very clearly no longer Swiss
German". Does that mean that what is spoken across the border is clearly
a different language, or that the label "Swiss German" is clearly
not used?</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2">Peter</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font color="blue" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><div align="center">
<p>
</p><hr><p></p></div>
<p><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> Mark Davis [mailto:</font><a href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font color="blue" face="Tahoma" size="2">
<u>mark.davis@icu-project.org</u></font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="2">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:00 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Håvard Hjulstad; </font><a href="mailto:iso639-2@loc.gov" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font color="blue" face="Tahoma" size="2"><u>iso639-2@loc.gov</u></font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="2">
<b><br>
Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group; </font><a href="mailto:zaiitov@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font color="blue" face="Tahoma" size="2"><u>zaiitov@gmail.com</u></font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="2">
;
ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; </font><a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font color="blue" face="Tahoma" size="2"><u>ietf-languages@iana.org
</u></font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="2">;
</font><a href="mailto:iso639@dkuug.dk" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font color="blue" face="Tahoma" size="2"><u>iso639@dkuug.dk</u></font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b><br>
Subject:</b> [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">ISO 639-2 (on </font><a href="http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font color="blue" face="Times New Roman" size="2">
<u>http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php</u></font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="2">)
lists the following:<br>
<br>
gsw Alemani; Swiss German
alémanique <br>
<br>
However, there is a "c" missing from Alemanic, and Swiss German
is not the same as Alemanic: Swiss German is a type of Alemanic, but there
are other types that are not the same as Swiss German.<br>
<br>
Quoting Martin Duerst: </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><br>
<br>
"Yes, Swabian is clearly Alemanic. Alemanic and Swiss German are not<br>
the same. There are very close similarities between some dialects in <br>
the north of Switzerland and across the border in Germany, but as<br>
soon as you cross the border, it's very clearly no longer Swiss<br>
German. A label such as "Alemanic; Swiss German", assuming that
<br>
both are the same, is clearly wrong. If it's something like<br>
"Alemanic; includes Swiss German", that would be okay."<br>
<br>
Can this be corrected so that it does not continue to mislead people? <br>
<br>
Mark Davis </font>
</p><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font><font face="Courier New" size="2">_______________________________________________<br>
Ietf-languages mailing list<br>
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</p><p>
</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p></span>
</div></blockquote></div><br>