Fwd: Minutes from the Tuesday, March 23rd, 2009 IDNAbis WG meeting

Vint Cerf vint at google.com
Mon Apr 6 14:25:27 CEST 2009

thanks to eric for taking notes

Vint Cerf
1818 Library Street, Suite 400
Reston, VA 20190
vint at google.com

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Eric Brunner-Williams <ebw at abenaki.wabanaki.net>
> Date: April 5, 2009 4:27:33 PM EDT
> To: Vint Cerf <vint at google.com>
> Cc: ebw at abenaki.wabanaki.net
> Subject: Minutes from the Tuesday, March 23rd, 2009 IDNAbis WG meeting
> Minutes from the Tuesday, March 24th, 2009 IDNAbis WG meeting,  
> scribe Eric Brunner-Williams (ebw at abenaki.wabanaki.net). Transcribed  
> from notes, supplemented with Andrew Sullivan's jabber log.
> The meeting began at 9am with blue sheets and agenda modification.
> Patrick Faltstrom (PAF) continued the prior day's discussion of  
> casefolding, commented that Stuart had checked the {b u-umlaut} vs  
> {B u-umlaut} case (no change)
> Paul Hoffman (PH) responded that the a-umlaut case was correct  
> (change)
> Agenda modification Paul Hoffman's IDNAv2 proposal for 30min,  
> followed by questions.
> PH - IDNAv2 presentation, in brief, explain what the difference  
> relative to IDNA2008, see slides (Pauls). Different mapping solution  
> (2008 is no mapping)
> PAF - "more complicated than that", difference over what "mapping  
> means"
> PH - map in registration vs map in UI, suggest we tighten definition  
> of "map"
> Mark Davis (MD) - clarification (repeated later) that  
> "protection" (from "abusive registration") is not simply via  
> registry policy, but also via the client implementation, followed by  
> a discussion of browwer display of "suspicious characters".
> Vint Cerf (VC) - browsers are not the only applications that will  
> use IDNs so human processing (visual simularity, "looking") isn't  
> the only test
> MD - suspicious is homoglyphs, so "looking" is the test
> John Klensin (JK) - suspicious is bad registry policy, and/or bad  
> font and/or bad character set and/or bad content experience
> MD - rejoinder (missed by scribe)
> Thomas Narton (TN) - is there agreement that ICANN can't go ahead?  
> if we avoid edge cases ...?
> PH - yes, avoid edge
> TN - avoid edge in leading rounds
> Cary Karp (CK) - not the central issue, ICANN needs to enter into  
> contracts, no one is prepared to agree to conformance with protocol  
> not written so if delay then IDNA2003 goes into those contracts
> Harald Alvestrand (HA) - there is no difference (between 2003 and  
> 2008) for the set of labels ICANN has announced, there are no edge  
> cases
> Eric Brunner-Williams (EBW) - not all characters are known yet
> HA - not all submissions have been made public
> Tina Dam (TD) - public strings are announced, but not all chars  
> (other than TLD labels) disclosed (this is a reference to the SLD  
> and subordinate chars, scribe)
> End of the IDNAv2 presentation.
> VC - slides, discussion of stringprep, nameprep and upgrading, as  
> well as occurrence elsewhere, e.g., kerberos for password matching
> JK - procedural issues with "this updates stringprep", update issue  
> discussion
> HA - when do we discuss substantive issues? Two points of violent  
> objection: (1) it retains all the chars valid in '03 including  
> snowman, stupid mistake, and (2) treatment of bidi, current bidi  
> spec fails to achieve goals, AN, EN issue "simple bidi fix is too  
> simple", and has other stylistic objections.
> MD - agrees 08 bidi much better than 03 bidi, disagree snowman is  
> stupid, overblown objection, doesn't hurt much to take it out,  
> square-root (dot) com example (some mac fan), neutral on eliminating  
> symbols.
> PH - agree, not violently, about (heart) (removing it, scribe)
> PAF - more violent disagreement with IDNAv2, (1) still table based,  
> not rules, why not use rules? same ending discussion so same time to  
> complete. no comments (to current -table draft in five months.  
> problem in jabber/xmpp stored input (pre-map form), and (2)  
> definition of a-labels and u-labels, but maybe has been added to v2.  
> Problem with *prep -- no understanding of difference between the  
> character that is mapped to something and then stored, so people  
> have stored the pre-mapped character, mapping was big mistake in  
> idna2003. New mapping suggestion for idna2008 is just a help to  
> applications.
> Leslie Daigle (LD) - timeliness is a red herring, v2 plus one or two  
> things won't work
> JK - IDNAv2 will be slower (than IDNA2008) and the difference  
> between table based and rule based is significant, as is exclusion  
> vs inclusion
> MD - process for how context rules change a concern, lack of  
> mappings is a concern, argues for mapping only for lookup, not for  
> registration, 2003 compatibility with some exceptional characters
> VC - ZWJ? ZWNJ??
> MD - see UTR/46
> PAF - re: mapping, excellent example why WG moves slowly, first  
> draft of a lookup mapping written some time ago, if important, do  
> something about it
> PH - not fair
> MD - was told a mapping draft would not be welcome, there is a text  
> in the UTC list, mentions context rules and need for implementation
> VC - moving on, Jamos permitted under IDNAv2 (Jamo slide), removed  
> under 08
> PH - irrelevant under 2003 because they're mapped, in non-mapping  
> protocol, must get rid of. Not true in mapping protocol
> Dowon Kim (DK) - strongly recommend Jamo not allowed in 08
> MD - disagree with PH, jamo in syllables, but leading jamo (old  
> hangul chars)
> PH - only for ancient syllables
> VC - important to satisfy Koreans, not get tangled again
> MD - two (not three) possibilities: (1) jamo can occur under '03,  
> (2) v2 model, registry and clients to ban
> VC - the "extra dots" code points
> DK- Korean internet community doesn't want Jamo allowed under v2
> (Andrew Sullivan's jabber log ends)
> VC - observation slides (0), (1) -- canonical representation may be  
> useful, canonical IDNs slide
> MD - ambiguity is the wrong term, in 03 a unicode label turns  
> uniqeuly to a domain name, the reverse path is where there is an  
> ambiguity, e.g., final sigma. (2) can preserve symmetry between U  
> and A labels but not the assumption that only the canonical form is  
> stored or used (unicode urls in email user expectation)
> VC / MD - JK's work on what a domain slot in discussion of local  
> mapping (M-label)
> PH - vehemently agree w/PAF, mapping has to be very carefully  
> handled, very precise where and what kind of mapping we're talking  
> about
> CK - (1) IDN guidelines could or should go into a BCP document, (2)  
> the .gr registry would greatly appreciate it if people who aren't  
> registry operators working in greek would stop representing .gr's  
> issues and positions (yeah!!! scribe)
> PAF - rules agree with MD?
> JK - (something i didn't catch, scribe)
> DK(?) - mapping is essential
> James Seng (JS) - half-width, full-width mapping has to be done  
> somewhere
> VC - if non-canonical forms are not exported ...
> JS - non-IDN-aware A-labels, IDN-awere U-labels, so for IDN-unaware,  
> A-label is canonical, for IDN-aware, U-label is canonical
> MD - end up with soup transporting Unicode and A-labels, reference  
> to TR46 on mapping
> HA - disagree with MD, wild variety of non-sensical representations  
> not as useful as cononical form, IETF should define these canonical  
> forms. appendix reference (to MD's TR46 reference, supra, scribe)
> Dave Crocker (DC) - canonical form offers architectural advantages,  
> agree with HA
> Ucido(?) - CJK mapping makes canonical U-label
> Eric van der Pool (EvdP) - wants U-label restricted to SMTP, but for  
> web, no restriction, then combine best ideas of both 08 and v2
> JK - tradeoffs ... worried about interoperability, many more IDNs in  
> things we've not seen in 5+ years, variant forms make for more  
> potential risk, discourage old (03) stuff
> VC - discusses 08 -> 03 dual lookup (in appendix), IRI/URI at  
> protocol-specification level
> MD - there's "reasonable" and "unreasonable", but people think these  
> things are reasonable: u-umlaut, full-width, etc. -- this won't go  
> away, local mappings would be a disaster.
> Ted Hardie (TH) - in Bill Manning's absence in the role of the "Bad  
> Idea Fairy" (1) if xn-- and xo-- are a bad idea (two theories with a  
> signal), why is two theories without a signal (the "compromise"  
> mentioned between 03 and 08, above) not just as bad (or worse)?
> EvdP - (something i missed, scribe)
> PAF - xmpp, jabber retain identifiers, case independent matching,  
> mentions Pete Resnik's invention of stringprep -- what's pain now,  
> not 2bn users later (for the xmpp user base)
> JK - multiple forms a bad idea
> EvdP - new protocol jabber/xmpp, very old protocol DNS, between them  
> is the "web world" and it is not this group's (idnabis) decision  
> what they (the web world) do
> ----------
> break
> ----------
> VC - test a thory - value for canonicalization, poses question "do  
> you disagree with canonical forms as useful?"
> MD - mentions steps to a canonical form (CF), refine and identify  
> canonical definition form
> VC - if we adopt that (CF as useful), what else should we do, if  
> anything, transition?
>   (a) accept the pain soon, strict canonical
> or (b) what else not increassing pain?
> or (c) 08 +v2 anyone?
> or (d) v2 anyone?
> EvdP - strongly object to not being allowed to pick good features  
> from both 08 and v2, if web community goes off and does its mappings  
> (DENIC reference) it could be bad
> VC - asks no discussion of specific chars (the DENIC reference)
> MD - if there is a mapping step in 08, that has a dramatic effect on  
> eszett, ZWNJ, etc. if we have to choose right now between two, hard  
> choice
> VC - if unassigned, unallocated codepoints aren't looked up, then  
> what is needed?
> HA - three choices:
>   (a) 08 as is, mapping informative in an appendix
> or (b) 08 with mapping required on lookup
> of (c) v2. nobody seems to what to change bidi (08), protocol,  
> tables, etc, the status of mapping in the protocol is the sticking  
> point. details later, pick one
> VC - if pursue mapping & incorp. in 2008 structure, is that  
> acceptable?
>   q1: how many people would object to moving ahead with 2008 as  
> currently stands?
>   q2: use 2008 as basis, incorporate mapping (on lookup only, scribe)?
>   q3: use v2?
> TH - mentions the difference between normative rule and optional  
> appendix
> HA - current documents have an appendix
> scribe vote count: four object to (a), more object to (c)
> VC - ok, (b), how to overcome limitations of IDNA2008 as it stands?
> PH - add a non-optional non-appendix, something to tell people what  
> to do with inputs
> JS - suggesting a BCP (separate document)
> PAF - don't care if separate document, appendix, but need mapping,  
> if mapping it MUST ... don't want fluffy definition
> VC - mapping during lookup, not registration, using the canonical form
> MD - agree, but needs to be a requirement, for loop somewhere in 5.2  
> to 5.4 (protocol doc section refs, scribe), but in 4.x (ditto) MUST  
> NOT map in registration, store in U-label form
> Pete Resnick (PR) - pass
> VC - is there consensus for IDNA2008 and try to include non-optional  
> (lookup only) mapping?
> MD - and to include a SHOULD for storage?
> VC - yes
> JK - permanent or transitional?
> VC- transitional for the purposes of backward compatibility
> PH - need time
> VC - there is consensus to proceed on this (08 + lookup mapping)
> PAF - unhappy with mapping is a MUST
> Meeting ends at 11am. Blue sheet reminder and collection.

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