1945 subtag - Re: Ietf-languages Digest, Vol 104, Issue 2

Tue Sep 13 00:36:21 CEST 2011

Hi, Joao, Francisco, Antonio, all:

Francisco Miguel Valada fmvalada at hotmail.com 
Mon Sep 12 16:16:02 CEST 2011 

> João,

> 1) About the 1931 agreement:

> a) It was not fully implemented, since Academia das
> Ciências did not accept the deletion of mute consonantal letters 

>
> this is the agreement (7 paragraphs)
>
> http://dre.pt/pdfgratis/1931/05/12000.pdf
>
> this is the agreement without the first paragraph
>
> http://dre.pt/pdfgratis/1931/06/12600.pdf
>
> b) In Brazil, the enforcement had ups and downs, I
> will spare you the details, you can read the full story here (see page 1) http://dre.pt/pdfgratis/1945/12/27300.pdf

> c) The 1931 changes were minor changes and, in my
> opinion, they do not deserve a subtag such as 1911, 1945 and 1990 do. 

> 2 – Be careful! The “official vocabulary in http://www.portaldalinguaportuguesa.org/” is misleading and ambiguous. 
> There are several examples. I won’t make them public, since I would be helping people who do not do their homework (the people in 
> ILTEC in charge of the vocabulary), and I only give credit to those who study and do their homework. 

> I can only assure you that they deleted too many consonants...
> Cheers,

> Francisco Miguel Valada

> +32479855056

Hi, it's my understanding also from previous conversation on the list and from what I read elsewhere that the 1931 agreement came out of the 1911 changes
and that it was re-implemented in 1943; 
then more changes came in 1945; 
so I only see 3 agreements.

Then of course there is pre-1911

(Since I am not Portuguese, someone may, if he/she wishes, tell me if my info. is accurate or not.  From what I could read of http://dre.pt/pdfgratis/1931/05/12000.pdf  ; I did manage to go through the 7 paragraphs!  these changes -- the replacement of Greek consonant clusters such as ph with f, and the elimination of silent consonants, excepting things like the double r, seem to be quite similar to the changes proposed  the 1904 
l’oeuvre Orthographe nationale ["National Orthography Treatise"], by Aniceto dos Reis Gonçalves Viana; I've pasted below this my previous reply to Joao and others with the link to the article describing Aniceto dos Reis Goncalves Viana's work and the three reforms, in case anyone needs that. )

But I personally think 3 subtags, plus if you like a pre-1911 tag (with no hyphen as Philip says), will probably do.

It's quite nice of Joao to write these requests (that is, if he chooses to write the requests for all three or four subtags).

Best,

--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar at hotmail.com

* * *

CE Whitehead cewcathar at hotmail.com 
Tue Aug 30 21:40:27 CEST 2011 

> Hi.

> João Miguel Neves joao at silvaneves.org
> Tue Aug 30 15:38:11 CEST 2011

>> Em 26-08-2011 17:48, António H F P A Emiliano (FCSH/UNL) escreveu:
>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:47:00 +0100
>>>> From: Jo?o Miguel Neves <joao at silvaneves.org>
>>>> To: ietf-languages at alvestrand.no
>>>> Subject: Re: Language subtag registration for acor1990 (ammended from
>>>>     ao1990)
>>>> Message-ID: <4E566E74.7000904 at silvaneves.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>>>
>>>> Em 25-08-2011 15:48, Ant?nio H F P A Emiliano (FCSH/UNL) escreveu:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is the most simple (and less problematic) procedure .
>>>>>
>>>>> pre1911 - Traditional Portuguese orthography (late 18th century to
>>>>> early 20th century)
>>>>> 1911 - Portuguese orthography of 1911
>>>>> 1945 - Portuguese orthography of 1945 (Conven??o Ortogr?fica
>>>>> Luso-Brasileira, 1945)
>>>>> 1990 - Portuguese orthography of 1990 (Acordo Ortogr?fico da L?ngua
>>>>> Portuguesa, 1990) -->
>>>>> --> alternatives: 1991 (ratification), 2008 (transitional
>>>>> enforcement), 2014 (full enforcement?)
>>>
>>>> Why did you choose to leave the 1931 agreement implemented in 1940 in
>>>> Portugal ainda in 1943 in Brazil out?
>>>
>>> Sorry I don’t understand this (the paragraph seems to be truncated).
>>> Please clarify.
>>> This is an important issue.
>>>
>> There's an international agreement between Portugal and Brazil in 1931
>> that was implemented officially in 1940 in Portugal and in 1943 in
>> Brasil. According to claims I've seen most of it's contents is from the
>> Portuguese 1911 reform.
>
> Information posted at Language Links concurs with the information provided by you and Wikipedia regarding the 1931 agreement:
> http://www.languagetranslation.com/blogs/?p=754
> (I also found additional informaiton online
> that suggests that both Brazil and Portugal agreed to this again in 1943 -- but the 1931 date seems fine with me; it's the first 
> agreement; but see the pro-reform page/site -- in English:  http://home.vicnet.net.au/~ozideas/wportref.htm

> The second resource that mentions the second 1943 agreement is in French; it seems to be a good source).

>> "1931 <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pt/wiki/1931> - Primeiro
>> Acordo Ortográfico por iniciativa da Academia Brasileira de Letras
>> <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pt/wiki/Academia_Brasileira_de_Letras>
>> e aprovado pela Academia das Ciências de Lisboa
>> <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pt/wiki/Academia_das_Ci%C3%AAncias_de_Lisboa>,
>> em Portugal publicado no /Diário do Govêrno/, n.º 120, I Série, 25 de
>> Maio de 1931."

>> If we go for international treaties, then it would be: 1931, 1945, 1990.
>> I agree we can extend to 1911 given the huge reform it was. 
>> This means
>> I'll be searching reference material for 1945 and 1990. Feel free to
>> help in these or all of them.

> I am not sure if the following online paper by Fiorin -- a Portuguese author; but
 > published in French -- which I've translated / summarized parts of below (in parentheses),
 > is helpful for cataloguing the 1911 reform (which was apparently agreed
 > upon by both Brazil  & Portugal in 1931; then annulled in 1934, 
> then with little change readopted in a second 1943 agreement followed by
 > a new one in 1945 which was met with protests in Brazil and so the 1943
 > agreement was returned to in Brazil in 1955; a third accord was agreed 
> upon in 1971, and the 1990 agreement is apparently an effort to work out some 
> differences remaining in the Brazilian and Portuguese orthographies).
>
> The 1911 agreement, according, to the paper by Fiorin in French (which 
> seems reliable), seems to have been based on a 1904 work by Anceto dos 
> Reis Goncalves Viana who began coming up with principles of orthography 
> beginning 1885
>
> (José Luiz Fiorin
>
> Université de São Paulo, L'accord sur l'orthographe:  une question de politique linguistique
>
> http://ressources-cla.univ-fcomte.fr/gerflint/BresilSPECIAL1/fiorin.pdf ;
>
>
> "La troisième période est intitulée période de l’orthographe historico-scientifique
> 
> ou simplifiée. Elle débute avec la publication, en 1904, de l’oeuvre Orthographe
>
> nationale, d’Aniceto dos Reis Gonçalves Viana."
>
> "a) élimination complète de tous les symboles servant à représenter les phonèmes
> grecs : th, ph, ch [= k], rh et y ;"
> { elimination of all symbles representing Greek sounds (phonemes; in vogue at the time) }
> 
> "b) réduction des consonnes redoublées en consonnes simples, à l’exception de rr et de
> ss, qui ont des valeurs phonétiques propres;"
> { reduction of doubled consonants, making these single consonants, excepting rr and ss . . . " }
>
> "c) élimination des consonnes nulles qui n’ont aucune influence sur la prononciation de
> la voyelle précédente;"
> { elimination of silent consonants that do not influence the preceding vowel }
>
> "d) régularisation de l’accentuation graphique."
> { regularization of accents }
>
>
> In 1911 the Portuguese created a commission which adopted, with small changes, the reforms proposed by Goncalves Viana.
>
> It was made official in Portugual without Brazilian input. It was 
> adopted by both in 1931 by an agreement / treaty concluded between the 
> Brazilian Academy of Letters and the Academy of Sciences in Lisbon. In 
> 1934 however the accord was annulled.
>
> In 1943 the Luso-Bresilienne Convention was signed, reestablishing the 
> 1931 agreement.  This was approved by the Brazilian Academy of Letters 
> 1943.
>
> In 1945 as a result of divergent interpretations of orthographic rules 
> the Brazilians and Portuguese got together again to create a documemt 
> explaining them, "Conclusions . . . " [I have the name in French only].  The modifications were great . . . and so it's viewed as a new 
> reform.
>
> It favored Portuguese pronuciations. In 1955 Brazil returned to the 1943
> accord which meant schism for the two countries' orthographies.
> 
> [Some differences in the two orthographies remained to hopefully be 
> eliminated mostly with the 1990 accord.]  That's the gist of what I've 
> read.)
> 
> Hope this is what you are looking for.
> 
> Best,
>
> --C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar at hotmail.com 

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