Valencian Language Tag registration request

[Peter Constable]

David Dalby's conceptualizations have some merits, but do not provide an adequate basis for useful language coding of autonyms because they don't account for the fact that autonyms are not unique or consistent (across time or social communities).


Peter

From: Lang Gérard [mailto:gerard.lang at insee.fr]
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 12:00 AM
To: Peter Constable; ietf-languages at alvestrand.no
Cc: Lang Gérard
Subject: RE: Valencian Language Tag registration request

I do not think that you can consider  "autonyms" as purely formal objects. On the contrary, they are social objects unifying and identifying their "speech community" (a concept developped notably by David Dalby) and giving proof of utilisation of the considered language and so have a veritable social existence. And with the proof of social existence of a unique autonym as a language name used by its "speech community", we do not have to bother too much about what could be the definition of a language name.
In fact, what would mean a concept of language without having a language name to identify the considered concept ?
Only the transformation going from the autonym, considered as the unique language name, to the choice of  its representation is a formal step of the procees, and further the choice of the code element is a further formal step.
Bien cordialement.
Gérard LANG
________________________________
De : Peter Constable [mailto:petercon at microsoft.com]
Envoyé : vendredi 19 juin 2009 08:03
À : Lang Gérard; ietf-languages at alvestrand.no
Objet : RE: Valencian Language Tag registration request
By this rationale, "Hatian" and "Patois" should  be separate coded entities, and one would never be able to know for content tagged as "Patois" if it was making the same declaration as would "Haitian" or something entirely different. The very same arguments you make in relation to languages - that they are objects whose definition is clearly questionable - is equally applicable to language names unless you treat them purely formally: as labels with no consideration for what they signify. But once you do that, the coding loses any usefulness. There is no real need to code labels apart from interest in what those labels signify.


Peter

From: ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Lang Gérard
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:10 AM
To: Marion Gunn; ietf-languages at alvestrand.no; vmbenet at gmail.com; ietf-languages-request at alvestrand.no
Subject: RE: Valencian Language Tag registration request

Maybe the principal question is what are the entries to be registered and coded inside ISO 639.
And, for me, the answer is clearly given by the title of the ISO 639 series that is "Code for the representation of NAMES of languages".
So that the coded entries of ISO 639 should be NAMES of LANGUAGES (ideally the language's autonym, that is the name given by the considered named language inside this considered language; so that there should ideally be only one language name for every entry of ISO 639, because this entry is exactly this name that is being coded). So that ISO 639 should not be taken as coding directly languages (objects whose definition is clearly questionable and does not seem to be unanimously adopted), and should naturally choosee code elements having direct links with the coded language name, as this has been quasi-systematically the case in ISO 639 history..
Gérard LANG

________________________________
De : ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no] De la part de Marion Gunn
Envoyé : jeudi 18 juin 2009 14:02
À : ietf-languages at alvestrand.no; vmbenet at gmail.com; ietf-languages-request at alvestrand.no
Objet : Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request
That is a perfectly valid reason for your request, Victor, which worked for Bosnian, although only after many lives had been destroyed, which "justification" is not one to be wished on any country, so please bear in mind that such decisions are sometimes based on reasoned argument, sometimes on political bias and that being mocked in public, as you were today, is part of the price you pay for just asking in the current climate of intolerance of differences.

For the record, I abhor the recent mocking reference to my country's consititution so as to silence you (and ask the list owner to reject the use of this list to make such entirely inappropriate remarks).

mg


Scríobh Victor on 18 Jun 2009, at 08:07, Victor:

The main reason to request the language tag is the identity the

user's have about the language....

--
Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an
Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,
Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland
* mgunn at egt.ie<mailto:mgunn at egt.ie> * eamonn at egt.ie<mailto:eamonn at egt.ie> *
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