<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Cambria;
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Times;
panose-1:2 2 6 3 5 4 5 2 3 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times","serif";
color:black;}
h1
{mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 1 Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:16.0pt;
font-family:"Times","serif";
color:green;
font-weight:normal;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
span.Heading1Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 1 Char";
mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 1";
font-family:"Cambria","serif";
color:#365F91;
font-weight:bold;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>David Dalby’s conceptualizations have some merits, but do
not provide an adequate basis for useful language coding of autonyms because
they don’t account for the fact that autonyms are not unique or
consistent (across time or social communities).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Lang Gérard
[mailto:gerard.lang@insee.fr] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2009 12:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Constable; ietf-languages@alvestrand.no<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lang Gérard<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Valencian Language Tag registration request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>I do not think that you can consider "autonyms" as
purely formal objects. On the contrary, they are social objects unifying and
identifying their "speech community" (a concept developped
notably by David Dalby) and giving proof of utilisation of the considered
language and so have a veritable social existence. And with the proof of
social existence of a unique autonym as a language name used by its
"speech community", we do not have to bother too much about what
could be the definition of a language name. </span><span
style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>In fact, what would mean a concept of language without having a
language name to identify the considered concept ?</span><span
style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Only the transformation going from the autonym, considered as the
unique language name, to the choice of its representation is a
formal step of the procees, and further the choice of the code element is a
further formal step.</span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Bien cordialement.</span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Gérard LANG</span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=FR
style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:windowtext'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span lang=FR
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>De :</span></b><span
lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>
Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] <br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 19 juin 2009 08:03<br>
<b>À :</b> Lang Gérard; ietf-languages@alvestrand.no<br>
<b>Objet :</b> RE: Valencian Language Tag registration request</span><span
lang=FR style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>By this rationale, “Hatian” and “Patois”
should be separate coded entities, and one would never be able to know
for content tagged as “Patois” if it was making the same
declaration as would “Haitian” or something entirely different. The
very same arguments you make in relation to languages – that they are
objects whose definition is clearly questionable – is equally applicable
to language names unless you treat them purely formally: as labels with no
consideration for what they signify. But once you do that, the coding loses any
usefulness. There is no real need to code labels apart from interest in what
those labels signify.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Lang Gérard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Marion Gunn; ietf-languages@alvestrand.no; vmbenet@gmail.com;
ietf-languages-request@alvestrand.no<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Valencian Language Tag registration request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Maybe the principal question is what are the entries to be
registered and coded inside ISO 639.</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>And, for me, the answer is clearly given by the title of the ISO
639 series that is "Code for the representation of NAMES of
languages".</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>So that the coded entries of ISO 639 should be NAMES of LANGUAGES
(ideally the language's autonym, that is the name given by the considered named
language inside this considered language; so that there should ideally be only
one language name for every entry of ISO 639, because this entry is exactly
this name that is being coded). So that ISO 639 should not be taken as coding
directly languages (objects whose definition is clearly questionable and does
not seem to be unanimously adopted), and should naturally choosee code elements
having direct links with the coded language name, as this has been quasi-systematically the
case in ISO 639 history..</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Gérard LANG </span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=FR>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span lang=FR
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span
lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] <b>De la part de</b> Marion Gunn<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 18 juin 2009 14:02<br>
<b>À :</b> ietf-languages@alvestrand.no; vmbenet@gmail.com;
ietf-languages-request@alvestrand.no<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: Valencian Language Tag registration request</span><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-GB>That is a
perfectly valid reason for your request, Victor, which worked for Bosnian,
although only after many lives had been destroyed, which
"justification" is not one to be wished on any country, so please
bear in mind that such decisions are sometimes based on reasoned argument,
sometimes on political bias and that being mocked in public, as you were today,
is part of the price you pay for just asking in the current climate of
intolerance of differences.<br>
<br>
For the record, I abhor the recent mocking reference to my country's
consititution so as to silence you (and ask the list owner to reject the use of
this list to make such entirely inappropriate remarks).<br>
<br>
mg<br>
<br>
<br>
Scríobh Victor on 18 Jun 2009, at 08:07, Victor:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>The main reason to request the language tag is the identity the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>user's have about the language....<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-GB>-- </span><span
style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Marion
Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>27
Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Bhóthair,
An Charraig Dhubh,</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Co.
Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>* <a
href="mailto:mgunn@egt.ie">mgunn@egt.ie</a> * <a href="mailto:eamonn@egt.ie">eamonn@egt.ie</a>
*</span><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>