Fwd: [Idna-arabicscript] RE: [Fwd: Re: Follow-up to Monday's discussion of digits]
Vint Cerf
vint at google.com
Mon Nov 24 22:57:13 CET 2008
for your information. Most of the communications coming from the
arabic community that I have seen appear to favor a protocol-level
restriction on mixing of arabic, eastern-ariabic and western digit
forms.
vint
NOTE NEW BUSINESS ADDRESS AND PHONE
Vint Cerf
Google
1818 Library Street, Suite 400
Reston, VA 20190
202-370-5637
vint at google.com
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Abdulaziz Al-Zoman" <azoman at citc.gov.sa>
> Date: November 24, 2008 4:18:41 PM EST
> To: "Sarmad Hussain" <sarmad.hussain at nu.edu.pk>, "Vint Cerf"
> <vint at google.com>
> Cc: "Eric Brunner-Williams" <ebw at abenaki.wabanaki.net>, "Raed Al-
> Fayez" <rfayez at citc.gov.sa>, "Alireza Saleh" <saleh at nic.ir>,
> <azmah at mynic.net.my>, "Baher Esmat" <baher.esmat at icann.org>,
> <gvictor at tra.gov.eg>, "Hania Dimassi" <dimassi at un.org>,
> <oueichek at aloola.sy>, "Kawa Baha" <bahak at nsc.gov.af>, "Manal
> Ismail" <manal at tra.gov.eg>, "Rajesh Aggarwal" <rajesh at nixi.in>,
> <shahshah at irnic.ir>, <yeo at mynic.net.my>, <idna-
> arabicscript at lists.irnic.ir>, "Abdulaziz Al-Zoman"
> <azoman at citc.gov.sa>
> Subject: RE: [Idna-arabicscript] RE: [Fwd: Re: Follow-up to
> Monday's discussion of digits]
>
> Dear All,
>
>
>
> I hope I’m not too late … as well as not wasting your time and
> bandwidth with a very basic information.
>
>
>
> Please note that you can see the attached pdf file if you cannot
> read the rest of the email message intelligently.
>
>
>
> ==================================================================
>
> Digits in Arabic Language/Script
>
>
>
> Digits Used in our region:
>
> Users who use an Arabic script to write Arabic-based languages
> (e.g., Arabic, Urdu, Persian …) are using one or more set of
> digits in their normal writing without mixing them together in
> writing numbers. These set are (according to Unicode terminologies):
>
>
>
> 1.European digits U+0030 .. U
> +0039 (0123456789)
>
> 2.Arabic-Indic digits U+0660 ..
> U0669 (٠١٢٣٤٥٦٧٨٩)
>
> 3.Eastern Arabic-Indic digits U+06F0 .. U
> +06F9 (۰۱۲۳۴۵۶۷۸۹)
>
>
>
> Even in one language community such as the Arabic speaking
> community, users are using different digits. For example, eastern
> Arab region (e.g., Egypt, Syria, Sudan, Iraq, all GCC countries,
> Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, … ) are mainly using Arabic-Indic
> digits while the western Arab region (e.g., Libya, Tunis, Algeria,
> Morocco, Mauritania, …) mainly using European digits. But never
> mixing them together while writing numbers. For example,
>
>
>
> 1- conference2009 Acceptable: Pure European digits
>
> 2- conference٢٠٠٩ Acceptable: Pure Arabic-Indic digits
>
> 3- conference۲۰۰۹ Acceptable: Pure Eastern Arabic-Indic
> digits
>
> 4- conference٢٠٠9 Not-Acceptable: Mix between European
> digits & Arabic-Indic digits
>
> 5- conference2٠٠٩ Not-Acceptable: Mix between European
> digits & Arabic-Indic digits
>
> 6- conference٢٠٠۹ Not-Acceptable: Mix between Arabic-
> Indic digits & Eastern Arabic-Indic digits
>
> 7- conference2۰۰۹ Not-Acceptable: Mix between European
> digits & Eastern Arabic-Indic digits
>
>
>
> The Arab Working Group on Arabic Domain Names (AWG-ADN) established
> by The League of Arab States in 2003 has studied the issue of
> digits extensively and reached the following recommendations (It
> was done according to the IDNA 2003):
>
> “Both sets may be supported in the user interface but both must be
> folded to one set [European] at the preparation of
> internationalized strings (e.g., "stringprep") phase; i.e. storage
> of numerals in the zone file is done in ASCII format.”
>
>
>
> So we hope this recommendation be honored in the new protocol IDNA
> 200x, i.e., we need a protocol-level solution to the digit problem.
>
>
>
>
>
> Number Substitutions in M$ Operating Systems
>
> · One important issue with respect to digits is how
> Microsoft operating systems (Windows XP, 2000, 2003, Vista, …)
> treat digits. This means that almost all MS OSs (XP, 2000, Vista,
> 2003) are storing digits in a unified codes (European digits) and
> displaying them in the local language setup. According to Microsoft:
>
> “Historically, Windows has supported number substitution by
> allowing the representation of different cultural shapes for the
> same digits while keeping the internal storage of these digits
> unified among different locales, for example numbers are stored in
> their well known hexadecimal values, 0x40, 0x41 [European digits],
> but displayed according to the selected language.
>
> This has allowed applications to process numerical values without
> the need to convert them from one language to another, for example
> a user can open an Microsoft Excel spreadsheet in a localized
> Arabic Windows and see the numbers shaped in Arabic, but open it in
> a European version of Windows and see European representation of
> the same numbers. This is also necessary for other symbols such as
> comma separators and percentage symbol because they usually
> accompany numbers in the same document.”
>
> Source: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa350685(VS.
> 85).aspx?PHPSESSID=o1fb21liejulfgrptbmi9dec92#NumberSubstitution
>
>
>
> · This problem is not for a specific version of MS OS that
> will be expired but a feature of the operating system behavior that
> is traditionally implemented by MS in their OSs even the new ones.
>
>
>
> · This problem is not for the Saudi Community only but all
> the Arab region which uses MS OSs.
>
>
>
> · Please see Appendix A which shows this problem using
> Google search. One search is done by typing Pure Arabic-Indic
> digits while the other is searching by typing Pure European digits
> but displayed as Arabic-Indic digits.
>
>
>
> · Please note that, unfortunately, MS operating systems
> (XP, 2000, vista …) are the most widely used OS in our region.
> Here are some statistics globally and in our region:
>
> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems
>
> http://www.edunet.tn/webstat/ar/operating_system.htm
>
> http://www.jamilhamdaoui.net/plugins/log/stats.php?4
>
> http://www.citc.gov.sa/NR/rdonlyres/2BFE8644-
> A19C-4CAD-91F8-62BC5ACDC787/0/
> Internet_Usage_Study_in_KSAIndividualEN.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> Digits in Domain Names
>
> · Please note that our discussions with respect the usage
> of digits are in the scope of domain names, where some restrictions
> on the size of the character set and the usage is “commonly”
> imposed for many reasons including security and stability of the
> domain name system.
>
>
>
> · The three sets of digits mean the same (zero to nine)
> despite their differences in shape.
>
>
>
> · With respect to domain names, mixing digit sets (i.e.
> European and Arabic-Indic) IS NOT applicable and not needed, and
> hence should be disallowed.
>
>
>
> · Users type digits without knowing the internal coding used.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Appendix A : Google search:
>
> 1- searching for “مؤتمر 2009” (Using Pure European
> digits but displayed as Arabic-Indic digits) found 992,000 results.
>
>

>
>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2- searching for “مؤتمر ٢٠٠٩” (Using Pure Arabic-
> Indic digits) found only 5,860 results!!!
>
>

>
>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> With my best regards,
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Abdulaziz H. Al-Zoman, Ph.D.
> IT Consultant & Director of SaudiNIC - CITC
> www.nic.net.sa
>
>

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