idnabis WG documents
John C Klensin
klensin at jck.com
Sat Apr 19 02:41:03 CEST 2008
Paul,
Our interpretations of many of the things that have been said
and happened differ. In particular, as has happened in the
past, when I say things like "[many] people believe", you think
I'm hearing only myself; when you say "many people are wary", I
wonder if voices close to your position sound louder or more
numerous. Let me express my perspective on some of the points
you raise; the WG will clearly need to sort these issues out.
And, again, I'm not attached to either specific presentation
style, presence or absence of explanations, or how documents are
organized and structured.
--On Friday, April 18, 2008 2:18 PM -0700 Paul Hoffman
<phoffman at imc.org> wrote:
> At 7:07 PM -0400 4/17/08, John C Klensin wrote:
>> Paul, I clearly don't have any problems with the WG deciding
>> on document structure.
>
> That's good to hear. One thing that came out of the
> discussions in Philadelphia is that many people are wary of
> the current "issues" document. I am probably the most vocal
> about that, of course, but I heard from multiple people that
> they don't like a document with a such a negative tone about
> IDNA2003.
Again, no attachment to the "negative tone". Either the tone
can be changed or materials dropped, depending on what the WG
wants. Note, however, that some of what I assume you believe to
be negative tone was an attempt to make the case that changes
were needed forcefully enough that people would be inclined to
actually make them. We have already gotten signals from some
quarters (especially registries) that indicate that they are
happy with IDNA2003, don't need the new scripts, and have no
intention of converting unless they are forced into it by market
pressure.
> Separately, one of the lessons we learned with IDNA2003 is
> that the more "helpful" text you put in the protocol document,
> the more likely it is that implementers will get it wrong. The
> rationale and "issues" sections of the design team documents
> may have been helpful in getting us to where we are today, but
> have no value to an implementer who needs to know exactly what
> their implementation needs to do.
We agree about that implementer, especially if one also assumes
good faith. It hasn't come up much around the IETF, but I am,
for example, a long-time opponent of tutorial descriptions of
standards that people can confuse with the standards themselves.
However, especially because of the client-side aspects and
extensive social and political debates that surround IDNs
(including an assortment of vendors who continue to offer
deliberately incompatible solutions), there are audiences other
than the implementer. They may not --typically do not-- have
sufficient expertise to fully understand a "just do this and it
will be right" set of instructions but need to understand,
conceptually, what is going on. That difference in audiences
gives us a messy tradeoff. On the one hand, you suggest that
additional ancillary text confuses implementers and leads to
errors of implementation. On the other, I suggest that not
having that text leads to shortcuts elsewhere in the process, to
people deciding that some steps can simply be left out, to
others deciding that some other approach is good enough and
compatible enough and has some advantages for their favorite
script, and so on.
I think we are probably both right. If we are, the question
becomes how to best organize the material to meet this wide
range of needs and I'm completely open to suggestions on that
subject.
john
More information about the Idna-update
mailing list