English (was Re: A few hums)

[Cyrus Shaoul]

Iljitsch, 

In rejoining the thread, I wanted to note that there are parts of the
world that have much less exposure to American English as compared to
the Netherlands or other countries in Western Europe. I talked to a
small number of people from India, Korea, China and Japan at the last
IETF meeting in Vienna (about 10 people), and they all told me that they
felt left out and frustrated at some of the WG meetings. (There are some
Asian attendees who have no difficulties participating, but I feel that
they are the exception, not the rule).

I don't think the situation is black-or-white with the all the European
participants either. There may be a significant minority of European
attendees who would have a much better understanding of what is going on
if speakers spoke slower and more clearly, in plainer language. 

I do agree with you that we need more information about the scale of the
problem before deciding whether or not it is significant enought to act
on. I have lots of anecdotal evidence, but no hard data. I would love
to know how many people have already stopped attending IETF meetings
because of this problem. Unfortunately, it is hard to find out from
within the IETF who is no longer involved in the IETF, but we could send
out a survey to all non-native English speakers currently subscribed to
all WG mailing lists (should this be done?). How large a number of
people complaining would you say would be needed to justify action? 100
people? More? Less?

(I should finally note there there are other barriers besides language
that may prevent people from participating, among them: money for travel
and lodging, registration fees and visa difficulties. I think that they
should be addressed as well, but for now let's focus on language.)

Thanks, 

Cyrus



On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:23:06 +0200
Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch at muada.com> wrote:

IvB> On donderdag, jul 24, 2003, at 00:57 Europe/Amsterdam, Scott W Brim 
IvB> wrote:
IvB> 
IvB> > Since I can't find any text at all right now, how about:
IvB> 
IvB> >   The IETF has never decided to do anything about the known problems
IvB> >   with language and verbal communication despite its increasing
IvB> >   international participation.  At this point there are serious
IvB> >   difficulties for those who are not native speakers of English, in
IvB> >   understanding presentations and arguments, in reading and
IvB> >   understanding colloquial text, and in formulating responses in order
IvB> >   to participate in the usual lively IETF discussion.  There are also
IvB> >   problems for those who speak English natively but are not used to the
IvB> >   accent or dialect of another participant.  The IETF needs to decide,
IvB> >   explicitly, what it will or will not do about these issues.
IvB> 
IvB> This here is dangerously close to blowing the whole thing way out of 
IvB> proportion. Yes, it would be nicer to if I could use my native 
IvB> language, but I'm not waiting for all you guys to learn Dutch. I 
IvB> haven't worked with interpretation, but from what I see (UN, european 
IvB> parliament) it sucks. And the IETF can't afford it anyway. So I'll 
IvB> manage to get by in English. And guess what: most of your 
IvB> colloquialisms aren't that difficult to understand. (Now spelling, 
IvB> that's another matter.)
IvB> 
IvB> There is enough evidence that non-native English speakers can function 
IvB> just fine within the IETF. Unfortunately, there are also examples to 
IvB> the contrary, at least to some degree, as some participants can be hard 
IvB> to understand. I do maintain that this has very likely something to do 
IvB> with the speed at which is spoken, so it should be possible to gain 
IvB> improvement here with some one-on-one feedback.
IvB> 
IvB> What I'd really like to know is how many people would like to 
IvB> participate in the IETF but don't because of language issues. If this 
IvB> turns out to be a large number, more effort in this area is justified. 
IvB> But it could also be a negligible number, so no action is warranted.

Cyrus Shaoul
NTT Advanced Technology Corp.
cyrus at ntt-at.com
http://www.ntt-at.com/