Hearing and Speaking Problems for Non-Native English speaking participants.

[Martin Stiemerling]

--On Thursday, July 17, 2003 07:41:17 -0700 todd glassey 
<todd.glassey at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

| To play the Devil's Advocate here -

Good to have it :-)

|
| One thing that we MUST take note of is that any multi-lingual services add
| cost and overhead to the IETF's already financially taxed processes. How
| would anyone propose we pay for these expanded services?

I feel that is too much, adding a multi-lingual services (as the UN does, 
and producing tons of paper each year).
The point as raised is, that everybody should be aware of the lingual 
capabilities of each other pariticipants. That just an issue of respect.



|
| Also this brings up an issue of perhaps it is OK for a WG to have a
| mother-language as it were and to conduct its operations in that language.
|
| Todd
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Martin Stiemerling" <Martin.Stiemerling at ccrle.nec.de>
| To: "Cyrus Shaoul" <cyrus at ntt-at.com>; <problem-statement at alvestrand.no>
| Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 1:42 AM
| Subject: Re: Hearing and Speaking Problems for Non-Native English speaking
| participants.
|
|
|> Hi all,
|>
|> I just wanna give my view on this:
|> I agree fully with the problem, since often non-native english speaker
|> are somehow lost during IETF meetings (even me, mother-tongue is german).
|> Native english speaker can go often very fast with their speech,
|> sometimes without microphone and perhaps a very strong accent. So others
|> might not understand about the ongoing discussions are.
|>
|> Even the newcomers introduction is hard to understand for non-native
|> speaker (those introduction I have attended).
|>
|> Martin
|>
|> --On Wednesday, July 16, 2003 09:23:39 -0400 Cyrus Shaoul
|> <cyrus at ntt-at.com> wrote:
|>
|> | Hi All,
|> |
|> | I have been lurking on the list for a while, but I wanted to contribute
|> | my thoughts on the problem of difficulties in participation by
| non-native
|> | English speakers.
|> |
|> | In draft-ietf-problem-issue-statement-02, it seems that the only place
|> | where a related problem is discussed in section 2.6.6 (Concentration of
|> | Influence in Too Few Hands). I support this section, as I feel that the
|> | second paragraph describes a real problem. I work with a team of
|> | Japanese IETF participants and they agree that this problem exists for
|> | them.
|> |
|> | There was also some discussion in a list thread called "Accomodating
|> | ESL speakers" recently about how non-native speakers have problems
|> | understanding other native and non-native speakers at the IETF
|> | meetings.
|> |
|> | I think it would good to add a little section about this problem to the
|> | problem-statement, unless it is already too late to do so. (I have
|> | ideas on how to solve these problems, but I will save them until it is
|> | time to provide solutions.)
|> |
|> |
|> | <SECTION.TITLE>
|> | Hearing and Speaking Problems for Non-Native English speaking
|> | participants.
|> | </SECTION.TITLE>
|> |
|> | At IETF meetings, many participants are non-native English speakers.
|> | Many of these participants currently have trouble understanding and
|> | following along with WG discussions when the person at the microphones,
|> | speaks very quickly, with a strong accent, or in a very animated way
|> | that can make it hard for non-native English speakers to understand
|> | what they are saying. Another problem is when speakers use excessive
|> | amounts of colloquial or idiomatic phrases. The meaning of these
|> | phrases, such as "water under the bridge" and "whatcha talking about"
|> | and unclear and can confuse non-native english speakers. A further
|> | problem for non-native english speakers is that the effort to
|> | simultaneously read slides with small letters on a screen and hear and
|> | understand the content of a speech can be too much to handle. Evidence
|> | of this is in the number of non-native English speakers taking
|> | photographs of the projection screen and making private recordings of
|> | WG meetings for later study (making it harder for them to
|> | interactively participate during the WG meeting.)
|> |
|> | This problem is amplified when speakers do not speak into the
| microphone,
|> | or use the microphone improperly. When the microphone is not used, the
|> | sound may be too soft to be comprhensible to non-native speakers even
|> | though it is marginally comprehensible to native english speakers. When
|> | a microphone is not used properly, for example clipping it to a necktie
|> | and then letting it drop, it can add small amounts of feedback to the
|> | sound, making it very hard to understand for non-native English
| speakers.
|> |
|> | There is also a problem with using the Jabber chat system with an
|> | official scribe as a support tool for non-native English speakers. The
|> | benefit of being able to read a summary of the WG meeting in text in
|> | realtime is undeniable, but haveing to constantly look down at a
|> | lap-top (if you have one) while listening to a presentation is
|> | difficult and distracting. Also, very few work groups use the Jabber
|> | system, and even fewer have good scribes.
|> |
|> | Another problem is the delay in getting the meeting minutes and
|> | presentation slides published electronically. This process is uneven
|> | and for some WGs, may take more than one month to complete, leaving
|> | some non-native English speakers in the dark on what was said, and what
|> | consensus was reached during the meeting.
|> |
|> | ------------------
|> |
|> | Does this make sense? I hope this point can get added in some form to
|> | the problem statement.
|> |
|> | Thanks,
|> |
|> | Cyrus
|> |
|> |
|> | Cyrus Shaoul
|> | NTT Advanced Technology Corp.
|> | cyrus at ntt-at.com
|> |
|> |
|>
|>
|>
|> Martin Stiemerling
|>
|> NEC Europe Ltd. -- Network Laboratories  Stiemerling at ccrle.nec.de
|> IPv4: http://www.ccrle.nec.de  IPv6: http://www.ipv6.ccrle.nec.de
|



Martin Stiemerling

NEC Europe Ltd. -- Network Laboratories  Stiemerling at ccrle.nec.de
IPv4: http://www.ccrle.nec.de  IPv6: http://www.ipv6.ccrle.nec.de