comments on problem-issue-statement-02
John C Klensin
john-ietf at jck.com
Thu Aug 14 05:52:10 CEST 2003
--On Monday, 11 August, 2003 14:39 +0300 Pekka Savola
<pekkas at netcore.fi> wrote:
>...
> Normative References
>
> [1] Huston, G. and M. Rose, "A Proposal to Improve IETF
> Productivity", draft-huston-ietf-pact-00 (work in progress),
> October 2002.
>
> [2] Blanchet, M., "Suggestions to Streamline the IETF
> Process",
> draft-blanchet-evolutionizeietf-suggestions-00 (work in
> progress), November 2002.
>
> [3] Hardie, T., "Working Groups and their Stuckees",
> draft-hardie-wg-stuckees-00 (work in progress), February 2003.
>
> ==> all of these should probably be informative references, as
> this document couldn't be published without them getting
> published otherwise..
Let's be very careful here, lest we create and illustrate a
problem that then belongs, recursively, on the list.
Something is a normative reference or not depending on how the
text that uses the reference actually does so. If the text is
written such that understanding and, if appropriate, conforming
to, the text of the reference is necessary to understanding or
implementing the present text, then the reference is normative,
period. Conversely, something is informative only if the usage
in the text has the character of, e.g., "you don't need to know
this, but, if you want to learn more about it, see [4]" or "for
examples of how this is done, see [7]". And the second of those
becomes normative if the text itself fails to provide a complete
specification but, instead, relies on the examples for important
information.
Sorry to pick on you Pekka, but your comment above, which
implies that one can simply move the references from one section
to another in order to avoid the "publication first" rule,
illustrates either that
* The normative/informative rule fails to solve the
problem for which it was announced. Instead, it
replaces the old problem ("careful effort must go into
examination of a document to determine which references
are actually normative") with a new, and harder, problem
("documents must be examined to ensure that actual
normative references are not disguised as informative
ones in the hope of earlier publication (or of making
publication possible)").
* The IESG and RFC Editor have made a procedural rule
that is sufficiently ill-defined that even people acting
with good intent cannot determine what it actually means.
or perhaps both.
To be fair to Pekka, simply changing things to avoid a rule is
probably not what he intended. But, I have certainly seen
documents in which references that were almost certainly
normative were listed as informative and then published. Had
those references been listed as normative, the documents in
question would still be sitting in queue. So this makes a
useful example.
I suggest that the document be expanded to include something
like:
In generating procedural rules to supplement written,
community-approved procedures, the IESG (and others) sometimes
underspecify those rules, leading to
(i) an additional requirement for case-by-case,
seemingly-arbitrary, decisions and to
(ii) the development of a subtle "oral tradition" around
those rules, and to
(iii) an opportunity and incentive for people to "game"
the rules, in the hope of escaping (or imposing)
whatever burdens they imply.
The first of these results is a cause of "late surprises" and
wasted time, since a document editor, other individual IETF
participant, or WG, acting in good faith, often cannot know how
things will be handled without picking an approach, completing
the work, and then seeing how things work out. It is also one
of the causes (or enabling mechanisms) of people --ADs or not--
trying to influence the decisions of a WG by making "the IESG
will never accept..." or "the IESG will require..." statements
that seem plausible given the rules.
The second acts as a barrier to effective and efficient
participation by those who are relatively new to the IETF and,
often has greater impact on non-native speakers of English than
on those who are good at discerning subtle meanings and intent.
And the third wastes everyone's time -- that of the participant
who is trying to find a loophole and exploit it, that of
reviewers trying to detect any such exploits, and that of the
community when the exploits get through the system anyway -- and
leads to unnecessary delays. And, of course, when they do get
through, they can be a source of lower quality than we would
like (also discussed elsewhere).
regards,
john
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