Ietf-languages Digest, Vol 91, Issue 11
Anthony Aristar
aristar at linguistlist.org
Wed Jul 14 15:30:55 CEST 2010
Just a comment: linguistically, Vedic Sanskrit is not so much a dialect
of Sanskrit, but the ancestor of all Sanskrit dialects.
ietf-languages-request at alvestrand.no wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit (Michael Everson)
> 2. Re: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit (Mark Davis ?)
> 3. Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit (CE Whitehead)
> 4. RE: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit (ejp10)
> 5. Re: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit (Peter Scharf)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:09:13 +0100
> From: Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>
> To: Peter Scharf <peter_scharf at brown.edu>, ietflang IETF Languages
> Discussion <ietf-languages at iana.org>
> Subject: Re: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit
> Message-ID: <3285A6BF-BD78-4637-B84D-48B6BD0522BC at evertype.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> On 13 Jul 2010, at 19:48, Peter Scharf wrote:
>
>
>> But how Paninian is Classical Sanskrit? NO one has yet modelled Paninian grammar and validated texts against it in any systematic way. The more generic term makes less of a claim and IS THE TERM IN USE.
>>
>
> Yes, but can you please tell me what the Sanskrit terms for the following are?
>
> Vedic dialect.
> Classical dialect.
> Epic dialect.
> Buddhist dialect.
>
> I assume it's something-or-other bha?a....
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:28:04 -0700
> From: Mark Davis ? <mark at macchiato.com>
> To: Doug Ewell <doug at ewellic.org>
> Cc: ietf-languages at iana.org
> Subject: Re: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTikdrMeJBhZRKA0CaCIpaQmy_iHphROKONRdiXh7 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> This is not a feature of BCP47, nor do I see any *practical* value in it,
> beyond making tags hard to read.
>
> Mark
>
> ? Il meglio ? l?inimico del bene ?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:59, Doug Ewell <doug at ewellic.org> wrote:
>
>
>> Mark Davis ? <mark at macchiato dot com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I fail to understand why people think that obfuscation is a good thing...
>>>
>> There will be a prefix for "classical" that completely disambiguates it.
>>
>> It's not a matter of obfuscation per se. There is a long-standing
>> principle that a given subtag should have the same meaning in any tag in
>> which it appears, regardless of prefixes or other surrounding subtags.
>>
>> Variant subtags like 'western' or 'classic' violate this principle,
>> because the relationship between "classical Sanskrit" and "Sanskrit" may
>> be totally different from the relationship between "classical X" and "X"
>> for any other language X.
>>
>> Contrast this with, say, "fr-fonipa" and "sa-fonipa", where the meaning
>> of 'fonipa' is the same regardless of whether it is applied to French or
>> Sanskrit. Likewise "az-baku1926" and "tk-baku1926"; even if the exact
>> implementation of Ja?alif differed between Azerbaijani and Turkmen, the
>> overall concept is the same.
>>
>> Region subtags don't follow this principle perfectly: the relationship
>> between "en" and "en-CU" probably isn't the same as that between "es"
>> and "es-CU". But region subtags were established long before the BCP 47
>> project (as such) got underway, and are already known to paint with too
>> wide a brush at some times and too narrow a brush at other times.
>> Variants are our invention, and we ought to follow our own principles
>> and intentions with regard to them.
>>
>> --
>> Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
>> RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ is dot gd slash 2kf0s ?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ietf-languages mailing list
>> Ietf-languages at alvestrand.no
>> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:41:28 -0400
> From: CE Whitehead <cewcathar at hotmail.com>
> To: <peter_scharf at brown.edu>, <ietf-languages at iana.org>
> Subject: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit
> Message-ID: <SNT142-w41E2973BFCDD0D968BA35B3B90 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
>
> Hi.
>
>
>
>
> I do not see a problem with using traditional names although I like both 'vedic' and 'epics' as names.
>
>
>
> My opinion on subtag names is that a subtag name derived from a term used in the language/dialect in question, a well-known/widely used term of course, or else an English name that uniquely identifies the language/dialect, such as 'vedic', is the best solution. Thus I still oppose 'classic.'
>
>
>
> (I would have thought, from the information online which separates out Paninian from Vedic Sanskrit, that Paninian was a suitable substitution for 'classic,' with the English names -- 'Vedic', 'epics' -- for the remaining dialects. But Peter Scharf's post states that it is not. Perhaps the Sanskrit name for the classic variant will be something easily recognized. Maybe we can still use 'vedic' etc for the remaining varieties.)
>
>
>
> I have a question related to Michael's question: is 'aarsha' the term for 'epic' Sanskrit? Or is the term 'aarsha basha'? Or is 'aarsha basha' a more general name, not referring specifically to just epic Sanskrit, but to other varieties as well?
>
>
> Best,
>
> C. E. Whitehead
> cewcathar at hotmail.com
> Michael Everson everson at evertype.com
> Tue Jul 13 21:09:13 CEST 2010
>
>
> On 13 Jul 2010, at 19:48, Peter Scharf wrote:
>
>
>
>>> But how Paninian is Classical Sanskrit? NO one has yet modelled Paninian grammar and validated texts against it in any systematic way. The more generic term makes less of a claim and IS THE TERM IN USE.
>>>
>
>
>> Yes, but can you please tell me what the Sanskrit terms for the following are?
>>
>
>
>> Vedic dialect.
>> Classical dialect.
>> Epic dialect.
>> Buddhist dialect.
>>
>
>
>> I assume it's something-or-other bha?a....
>>
>
>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:43:17 -0400
> From: ejp10 <ejp10 at psu.edu>
> To: ietf-languages at alvestrand.no
> Subject: RE: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit
> Message-ID: <3159D894-F460-4B90-80DC-378126CB9287 at psu.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> I am coming in slightly late into the discussion, so I apologize if I miss any point.
>
> FWIW - I do think there is a universality to the term "classical" with reference to Sanskrit and other languages like Latin.
>
> If we consider Latin in the West, "classical" refers to a codified grammar. This grammar was used by in the Roman era and in later Neo-Latin texts (up to an including mottos for U.S. states and universities such as "University of Delaware"). Latin is also source for neo-classical technical terms which are based on Latin roots, but actually invented post Roman era. Latin is also an official language of the Catholic Church and is still used officially by the Vatican
>
> Sanskrit generally has the same functions in South Asia. There is a codified grammar, and texts can still be composed in Sanskrit (since it is an official language in the state of Uttarakhand, India - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttarakhand). Sanskrit is also a source of learned borrowings much like Latin and is a liturgical language like Latin.
>
> In fact Fortson (2004) describes Sanskrit as a "somewhat artificial literary language"
> Fortson, Benjamin W. (2004) "Indo-European Language and Culture" Blackwell.
>
> This is also consistent with Latin. Despite the widespread use of Classical Latin in in almost all written texts, lower class dialogue from the Latin dramatist Plautus (254-184 BC) records structures "missing" in Classical Latin but which are attested in the modern Romance languages.
>
> I suspect that Classical Sanskrit would contrast with older Vedic Sanskrit (which no one speaks/writes) and later stages of Prakrit forms much as Classical Latin can be contrasted with older archaic Latin and later medieval Latin forms.
>
> There aren't many languages where this usage of "Classical" applies, but I believe Latin and Sanskrit are two of them. They are two ancient languages which somehow have Wikipedia pages
>
> Latin Wikipedia - http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagina_prima
> Sanskrit Wikipedia - http://sa.wikipedia.org/wiki/????????????
>
> Respectfully
>
> Elizabeth Pyatt
>
> P.S. Is there any clarification from one of the handbooks on Indic languages? I don't have one handy
>
>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 11:59:13 -0700
>> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug at ewellic.org>
>> To: ietf-languages at iana.org
>> Subject: RE: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit
>> Message-ID:
>> <20100713115913.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.69d6666d2b.wbe at email03.secureserver.net>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Mark Davis ? <mark at macchiato dot com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I fail to understand why people think that obfuscation is a good thing... There will be a prefix for "classical" that completely disambiguates it.
>>>
>> It's not a matter of obfuscation per se. There is a long-standing
>> principle that a given subtag should have the same meaning in any tag in
>> which it appears, regardless of prefixes or other surrounding subtags.
>>
>> Variant subtags like 'western' or 'classic' violate this principle,
>> because the relationship between "classical Sanskrit" and "Sanskrit" may
>> be totally different from the relationship between "classical X" and "X"
>> for any other language X.
>>
>> Contrast this with, say, "fr-fonipa" and "sa-fonipa", where the meaning
>> of 'fonipa' is the same regardless of whether it is applied to French or
>> Sanskrit. Likewise "az-baku1926" and "tk-baku1926"; even if the exact
>> implementation of Ja?alif differed between Azerbaijani and Turkmen, the
>> overall concept is the same.
>>
>> Region subtags don't follow this principle perfectly: the relationship
>> between "en" and "en-CU" probably isn't the same as that between "es"
>> and "es-CU". But region subtags were established long before the BCP 47
>> project (as such) got underway, and are already known to paint with too
>> wide a brush at some times and too narrow a brush at other times.
>> Variants are our invention, and we ought to follow our own principles
>> and intentions with regard to them.
>>
>> --
>> Doug Ewell | Thornton, Colorado, USA | http://www.ewellic.org
>> RFC 5645, 4645, UTN #14 | ietf-languages @ is dot gd slash 2kf0s ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ietf-languages mailing list
>> Ietf-languages at alvestrand.no
>> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
>>
>>
>> End of Ietf-languages Digest, Vol 91, Issue 10
>> **********************************************
>>
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
> Instructional Designer
> Education Technology Services, TLT/ITS
> Penn State University
> ejp10 at psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 or (814) 865-2030 (Main Office)
>
> 210 Rider Building (formerly Rider II)
> 227 W. Beaver Avenue
> State College, PA 16801-4819
> http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/psu
> http://tlt.psu.edu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:01:28 -0400
> From: Peter Scharf <peter_scharf at brown.edu>
> To: Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>
> Cc: ietflang IETF Languages Discussion <ietf-languages at iana.org>
> Subject: Re: Language Variant subtags for Sanskrit
> Message-ID: <7801C0A4-8A8D-495D-B831-996A1D833485 at brown.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed";
> DelSp="yes"
>
> See below
>
> *********************************************************
> Peter M. Scharf (401) 863-2720 office
> Department of Classics (401) 863-2123 dept.
> Brown University
> PO Box 1856 (401) 863-7484 fax
> Providence, RI 02912 Scharf at brown.edu
> http://www.research.brown.edu/research/profile.php?id=10044
> http://sanskritlibrary.org/
> *********************************************************
>
> On 13 Jul. 2010, at 3:09 PM, Michael Everson wrote:
>
>
>> On 13 Jul 2010, at 19:48, Peter Scharf wrote:
>>
>>
>>> But how Paninian is Classical Sanskrit? NO one has yet modelled
>>> Paninian grammar and validated texts against it in any systematic
>>> way. The more generic term makes less of a claim and IS THE TERM
>>> IN USE.
>>>
>> Yes, but can you please tell me what the Sanskrit terms for the
>> following are?
>>
>> Vedic dialect.
>>
>
> 'chandas' is the term Panini used. He distinguished from it
> 'bhaa.saa' (the spoken dialect of Sanskrit at his time).
> 'vaidikabhaa.saa' is one modern term for Vedic language. I have never
> heard Indian terms for the other three. This is not surprising, since
> historical linguistics is a 19th century European phenomenon, though
> ancient Indian linguists did have awareness of historical language
> change. If there are terms for the following, they are probably very
> modern ones. I'll ask on the Indology list.
>
>
>> Classical dialect.
>> Epic dialect.
>> Buddhist dialect.
>>
>> I assume it's something-or-other bha?a....
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>>
>
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> **********************************************
>
--
**************************************
Anthony Aristar, Director, Institute for Language Information & Technology
Professor of Linguistics Moderator, LINGUIST Linguistics Program
Dept. of English aristar at linguistlist.org
Eastern Michigan University 2000 Huron River Dr, Suite 104
Ypsilanti, MI 48197
U.S.A.
URL: http://linguistlist.org/aristar/
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