ON LANGUAGE NAMES /// RE: Results of Duplicate Busters Survey#2//Ainu, Aynu, Ajnu

Peter Constable petercon at microsoft.com
Fri Sep 12 11:54:01 CEST 2008


I'm wondering how it is you could have discovered that ISO 639-3 has an entry for "Ainu (China)" without at the same time discovering that it is encoded "aib"?



Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: Lang Gérard [mailto:gerard.lang at insee.fr]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 2:51 AM
To: Peter Constable; ietf-languages at iana.org
Subject: RE: ON LANGUAGE NAMES /// RE: Results of Duplicate Busters Survey#2//Ainu, Aynu, Ajnu

OK.
I certainly did not want to "destabilize" ISO 639-3 or "violate" BCP 47 !
I simply did not know that  the "chinese" language already had an ISO 639-3 code element, and I certainly was not to find "aib" for it (that does not seem better that "ajn"), so I tried to propose something useful !
I remain very guarded against the use of (country name) like Ainu (China) and Ainu (Japan) as "reference name".
Cordialement.
Gérard LANG


-----Message d'origine-----
De : ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no] De la part de Peter Constable
Envoyé : vendredi 12 septembre 2008 11:24
À : ietf-languages at iana.org
Objet : RE: ON LANGUAGE NAMES /// RE: Results of Duplicate Busters Survey#2//Ainu, Aynu, Ajnu

Gérard is suggesting to change the encoding of an entity encoded in ISO 639-3: to change "aib" to "ajn". This would be a destabilizing change that would violate the principles of BCP 47 as well as ISO 639-3, and that serves no useful purpose that I can see. Please see clause 4.5.2 of ISO 639-3:

"To ensure continuity and stability, the identifier for any given language shall not be changed."

This is a complete non-starter.


Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Lang Gérard
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:27 PM
To: Lang Gérard; Doug Ewell; ietf-languages at iana.org
Subject: RE: ON LANGUAGE NAMES /// RE: Results of Duplicate Busters Survey #2//Ainu, Aynu, Ajnu

Dear Doug Ewell,

Concerning my proposition regarding "aynu", I verified and found that the alpha-3 code elements (ayn) and (ayu) are alrzeady registered inside ISO 639-3, but that (ajn) is still available. So we could:
-retain "Ainu" as a phonetisation or romanization, with corresponding Iso 639-3 language name code element "ain" that is already registered for the "(russo-)japanese" language name; -retain "Ajnu" as a phonetisation or romanization, and make a request to ISO 639-3/RA concerning tha alpha-3 code elemant "ajn" to represent this language name, for the "chinese" language name (mnemonic trick "aJN" for Not Japan !); -use "ain-JP", "ain-RU" and "ajn-CN" as corresponding language tags.

Cordialement.
Gérard LANG

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Lang Gérard
Envoyé : mardi 9 septembre 2008 08:15
À : 'Doug Ewell'; ietf-languages at iana.org Cc : Lang Gérard Objet : RE: ON LANGUAGE NAMES /// RE: Results of Duplicate Busters Survey #2//Ainu, Aynu, Ajnu

Dear devil's advocate,

My proposition would be:
If we have a complete consensus, or even a sufficiently general agreement, that there are effectively two distinct languages, one japanese and one chiniese, could not we choose as language name, the autonym "Ainu" (considered as a phonetisation of the japanese language name ?) for the japanese language and, as language name, the autonym "Aynu" (considered as a phonetisation or romanization of the chinese language name ?) for the chinese language ?
Amicalement.
Gérard LANG


-----Message d'origine-----
De : ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no] De la part de Doug Ewell Envoyé : mardi 9 septembre 2008 03:58 À : ietf-languages at iana.org Objet : Re: ON LANGUAGE NAMES /// RE: Results of Duplicate Busters Survey #2



Lang Gérard <gerard dot lang at insee dot fr> wrote:

> Autonyms ( written directly with a variant of the Latin alphabet in
> their native script, or taken as romanized form of an autonym whose
> native script is not a variant of the Latin alphabet, or taken as an
> IPA phonetisation of the language name when the considering language
> has no script and is only a spoken language) are very certainly much
> more specific and identifying of the considered language name (because
> they are, in particular, the definitive proof for the existence and
> for the autonomy [also, of the self-denomination, "auto-nomination"]
> of the considered language) that possible french or english language
> names for the same languages.
>
> So, the consideration of autonyms gives a considerable separation and
> identification power for language names and the underlying language,
> that cannot be acheived by the approximation deriving from a french or
> english designation of the same entities.

Devil's advocate: A given culture, especially a relatively isolated one such as those whose native language was not reflected in ISO 639 until part 3, might well be unaware of other cultures, hundreds or thousands of kilometers away, where languages that happen to share the same autonym are spoken.

On the other hand, the English and French names (to the extent they differ from the native name, which I still contend is overstated for the minority languages) may be more likely to have been bestowed with an eye toward disambiguation, since there is bound to be a linguist among the millions of English and French speakers who is aware of the shared autonym.

Do I have hard evidence to back my assertion?  Nope.  Do you?

> The case that two autonyms could be identifiying the same language
> name, and the same underlying language, is certainly very infrequent
> and should be considered with many precautions.

I thought we were debating the opposite scenario: two autonyms that happen to be the same but identify two different languages.

> Are you definitively certain that the native phonetisations of both
> Ainu variants you consider as two distinct language names are
> different ? If then, maybe the romanization of the chinese version
> could be changed as not to be identical with the japanese autonym.

In other words, you would propose a slight modification of the ISO 639-3 name to eliminate the ambiguity.  That's exactly what I proposed by doing away with the ambiguous "Ainu" name in the Registry and retaining the unambiguous "Ainu (Japan)" and "Ainu (China)" which were already in 639-3.  I think this way is simpler and easier to comprehend.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ^

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