key questions [was the re-opening thread]
jean-michel bernier de portzamparc
jmabdp at gmail.com
Thu Feb 11 14:16:58 CET 2010
Here are some comments I received IRT the responses from Patrik Falstrom.
At 16:33 09/02/2010, Patrik Fältström wrote:
>> > At 23:15 08/02/2010, Patrik Fältström wrote:
>> >> Part from standing behind what Vint wrote in his response, let me
>> >> more directly the questions from Lisa.
>> >> I am a developer/designer of mostly web based software for management
>> >> domain names, web sites, email services and what not. I will (and want
>> to be
>> >> able to) in my interfaces first of all be pretty sure over what data
>> >> to me as a "server". I.e. I want to know what the end user really
>> wanted to
>> >> give me (I did explicitly not say "typed" here for reasons I hope
>> >> understand).
>> > I understand that you are on the server end. You are related to a user
>> > and you do not know if this is a direct relation, or it goes through a
>> > bowser, an iPhone, a Client, a User Agent. Correct? Yet, you also
>> > the case where you may have to develop the User Client/Agent and you
>> > things down to the user's fingers?
>> My point is that what people historically believe is "the user interface"
>> sometimes is a split relationship between what today is a client and a
>> server, where the human have access to the client, and the access to the
>> server is from the client via some protocol like HTTP.
>> I.e. we have often said that potential mappings should be done in the user
>> interface, and I agree with this, but I wanted to give one example where it
>> technically is very hard to do what is the user interface. IF there is a
>> mandate on some mapping, what software should do it? What software will be
>> compliant, and what software will not be compliant?
>> It is not as easy to answer those questions as some people might think.
> Correct. This is where I identify there are four possible IDNA user
> 1. in the user interface to the client
> 2. in the user client.
> 3. as a unique IDNApplication that serve the client
> 4. as a part of an IUI (Internet Use Interface) in between the client and
> the plug to the network where the server is plugged.
> 1 & 2 are OK for testing, not for user operations. There are as many
> experiences and possible different resolutions as there are applications or
> 3. is more secure, can have a control panel, support local config files.
> But user applications must know that service application and how to dialog
> with it.
> Only 4 permit localization issues to be locally centraly managed and
> networkization issues dealt through it with the ISP in order to permit a
> semantic relation with the server cleared from the context and identical
> with every existing protocols (the IUI looks to them as a pseudo-network
> they can ignore). You may have scores of applications using IDN without
> knowing it if they are UTF transparent.
> >> Now, if the web browser (if the web browser was used) did some trick
>> >> converted some characters, then I do not get the characters the end
>> >> typed (for example), but regardless of this, I will do whatever I want
>> to do
>> >> to make the end user happy. Exactly what that implies will differ
>> >> on context. Is this domain name management or management of a web site,
>> >> the management of email addresses or sites?
>> > So you mean that the reference is what the user wants to achieve?
>> To some degree, yes.
>> A user should not be surprised. But then what is surprised?
> We agree. And this is where I say that the IUI must be intelligent enough
> to be able to make a difference between localization and personalization
> Also, it means that there might actually be different Ulevels depending on
> personal, local, etc. mapping (i.e. for example a simple equivalent to
> Host.txt being supported)
> This is why I refer to a Multi-Layer Domain Name System pile with
> - what the user actually types,
> - which can be different from what the client will accept
> - that can be different from the real Ulevel
> - and then the actual Alabel
> All of them must strictly polynym (synonym in their context) for the user
> (this may change from users to users).
> This can be very common if the resolution may also be made outside of the
> DNS in other environments also using the IDN (IRI, semantic addressing,
> This is why I prefer to refer to IDNs as "Internet Domain Names" with a
> single simple syntax that covers DN and IntlDNs alike.
> This permits to consider that IntlDNs only are internet domain name of the
> "xn" presentation. The IUI having the job of sorting presentations and
> Presentations are simply the two letters before double dash (IDNA uses the
> xn-- "extended names" class). Classes other DNSupported pay loads can be
> introduced by single letter + --.
> 1. the Internet presentation layer emerges from this, with years of
> validation behind by i-DNs and IDNA2003
> 2. I have a universal syntax available to support presentations and any
> semantic. To make it universal I consider that Internet Domain Names syntax
> is alphadigital labels and sub-labels with "." (or something else) as
> intelabel, and "-" or (something else) as intersublabel. Double dash
> corresponds to an empty sublabel that separates metadata payload from naming
> > And
>> > your understanding of what he wants to achieve will depend on different
>> > context inputs, and obviously of the protocol being used and the task to
>> > performed?
>> Potentially, yes.
> > Also from the zone?
>> No. And the reason is because of the following:
>> To be able to give context dependent responses (such as language, username
>> or whatever), the selection mechanism must get information about the
>> And that is not possible to do in the DNS protocol.
> Yes you can.
> I can decide that .fr do not support French majuscules because it never
> had. And that .fra does, because it is designed to be semanticaly clear.
> So some layers in the architecture must be exactly the same, all over the
>> world, for all users, or else it will be impossible to get the base
>> interoperability that is needed to build the systems people wants.
> Correct. This is why the architecture needs to be more precise and support
> the needed flexibility up to the point IDNA2008 defines. This is this way
> that IDNA2008 defines multiplicity. It is the ultimate required point where
> architecture must be the same, all over the world, for all users. As such it
> defines the boarder of the IETF scope. This is why I identify:
> - the Internet system, the IETF scope of responsibility : IDNA2008
> - the Internet exotem, the user area that wants to use IDNA2008,
> documenting it is what I call IDNA2010 in order ICANN does not continue to
> use the word wrongly
> - the Internet peritem, the fringe between the Internet system and the
> user's Internet exotem. Documenting the way this peritem information must be
> presented is what I call IDNA2012.
> As Project.FRA I have a need. I know that to solve it I need to get my
> users to treat .fra differently from .fr.
> How can I do that?
> Very simply: in having my users using "punyplus" as an algorithm rather
> than "punycode".
> When they find a TLD or an upper level domain (can be several level)
> ("ULD", also a "User Level Domain") listed in their "netlocale" their IUI is
> going to localize it as indicated in the netlocale file.
> The same, if they need something special (for example kidprotection
> filtering) the punyplus algorithm can be used to filter as documented in a
> "personale" file.
> Punyplus and the netlocale file formats and possible management system need
> to be documented.
> My suggestion is that IETF can use:
> - MUSTs for its system
> - SHOULDs for the peritem fringe
> - MAY for the user exotem, like Mapping does.
> Another example, the HTTP and HTML protocols are the same all over the
>> place, but HTTP include a negotiation phase regarding screen size, type of
>> browser etc that makes it possible for an HTTP server to give back different
>> data depending on such information.
>> HTTP is not different. HTML is not different.
> Absolutely. This kind of functions (server front end and IUI can be
> performed by OPES - the HTTP OPES has been specified).
> Now, the problem you raise that it is not possible to do it through the DNS
> protocol is more a question of capacity if there are millions of TLDs to
> filter, update, etc. This is true on the Internet network side. This is not
> on a user side.
> If instead of a unique unique root file, you consider a unique virtual root
> file that people can partly implement through their "personale" file. They
> just maintain the TLDs they are interested in. There are 25.000
> sociolinguistic entities: I am able to read or grasp just a tiny few. I wish
> to filter out what I do not want (and not what Unicode wants, hence the
> dispute about RFC 4646).
> >> Is this mapping, if applied, to be implemented in the browser or in the
>> >> web server? I would like to get as raw data as possible, without having
>> >> browser doing anything, so that I know as much as possible on the
>> >> side. So I can "help" users the same way browsers today "help" users by
>> >> adding ".COM" TLD if that is not added. "guessing" I think it can be
>> > I understand this is in the case where you have to develop the user
>> > client interface?
>> Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If you for example on a web server use
>> Wordpress software, you as a user of the site do not develop the software.
>> Are you developing the user client interface? I do not know. I would claim I
>> am not doing that. Do the one creating the wordpress theme do that? I do not
>> It is blurry.
>> But I want to trust all of those developers "to do the right thing".
> You cannot. First a whole because some are breakers, phishers, pirates,
> This is why I tend to say, what the user feel as the "network" MUST be what
> his machine perceives as the network (this can include non-Internet
> In order to achieve this, I consider that "user side network applications"
> must be considered as forming a dedicated network layer, where they appear
> as "smart local operating tasks" (slots) to clearly identfy the from their
> brother at networking the Internet network applications (Mail, DNS, etc.).
> They locally operate tasks the user consider as parts of his "smart
> Internet system", whatever it may really be. The user will access them
> through the browser or some dedicated local interface. Hence I call the slot
> layer "pseudo-network" as it is seen by the user as an intelligent network
> Now, I put that slot layer in the IUI, so there is a clean overlay :
> - through the IUI the network expand on the User side.
> - through the IUI the user controls the fringe of the network. This permits
> to differentiate :
> -- dump traffic (passive content) from end to end
> -- smart traffic (ambient and active content) from IUI to IUI
> Then I observe such slots have much in common and that it could be nice for
> them to interoperate with other local slot servicing them, or with remote
> fellow slots to support metatraffic. This is why I add interapplication
> layer - between the Internet network application layer and the IUI network
> application layer.
> Then I obseve that there can be advantages in locating network applications
> in the Internet (global range network applications) and in the IUI (local
> range network applications).
> Let take the example of the DNS. If I put the DNS in the IUI it is both
> part of the Internet DNS and dedicated to my machine/small-home-network
> (SnHn) or duplicated within my own Internet context (cybship: all the
> digital resources I control). To be sure there is no pollution I turn
> recursion down, making it secure.This means that now I can use my own local
> root, with just the TLD/ULDs I am interested in from the unique virtual root
> classes (I can add my own ULDs as China does with its own IDNgTLDs).
> >> And if HTTP/Web browser is not in use, but instead for example an
>> >> application that then interact over JSON/Netstring/TCP with some server
>> >> then I can in a more direct way control what is sent to the server (if
>> >> also write the client). I will only be confused (possibly) over the
>> >> that is in the operating system / user interface libraries.
>> > OK. Did you think of a method for you to clarify that possible
>> Only by giving me the ability to implement mapping or not depending on
>> what "makes sense" for me, and my application.
> OK. This is where I say there is an urgent need for Internet Adminance
> (i.e. technically managing the internet in cooperation, so all this can be
> documented by who is actually responsible). But this calls for flexibility,
> simple and robust rules, etc. This is why I say the IUI needs an
> interapplication system that permits network applications. Naturally called
> it "Netix". And I can easily support it in using the ML-DNS syntax.
> This way Netix in the IUI makes a complete interoperable addition to the
> Internet basis able to match the user's expectation for an intelligent open
> network of his own understanding, using its own classes and presentations,
> ML-DNS pile, interslot authentication
> I am VERY nervous over having any kind of mandatory mappings. Mandatory
>> for whom? Who must implement it?
> Sure !!! But having a mandatory syntax to express a free mapping semantic
> may help. Moreover it can be multilingual and users can enter parameters or
> use scripts.
> >> All of this might sounds like if it will make things messier for the
>> >> user, but in reality I do not think so. *NO* developer have the
>> interest in
>> >> making this messier for the user. And exactly what it means to make it
>> >> easier for the user depends on context. Very much. Specifically when we
>> >> so many protocols and environments and contexts where domain names are
>> >> use.
>> > As I said, I am not that much competent in Web level applications,
>> > with user level interapplications. Which documentation do you use to
>> > identify how you should understand what to do with a given protocol, in
>> > given environment, for a given context?
>> I will use whatever I can find. Often I am looking at what is done in
>> local language communities. At the moment IANA Language tables.
> This is why I need all this and much more to be federated in a structed
> open repository that applications can directly access. A local customized
> I call it the Multilingual Distributed Referential System (MDRS). It should
> be ISO 11179 compatible to interoperate with many other registries.
> As you say, most is documented on a local language community basis. This is
> why I documented the ccTAG concept with people from ISO, MAAYA,
> Linguasphere, etc. They are just a reference grid, a continuation of ISO
> 3166 (we use to call ISO 3166-4). ISO 3166 includes for each country the
> administrative (i.e. normative) languages and scripts using ISO 639 and
> 15924 codes. So ccTAGs proceed in the logical categorization order: country,
> script, language, region - supported by the core document of international
> consistencuy, including Internet and ccTLDs.
> The technical interest is that being polylingual (French/English) and
> listing the Govs, i.e. the standardization authorities, it can be understood
> as the French and English instantiations of a single multilingual standard
> with equal validity in every normative language (what we call "polynym",
> synonym in different context).
> Due to the universal acceptance of ISO 3166 it continues the Internet
> intrastructure as it is since 1978. Very stable, accepted, intuitive. This
> means that I can tag every application linguistic instantiation in a
> congruent manner with its administrative forms, sales contracts, vendor
> rates and support, local regulations, etc.
> Also, that through ISO 11179 compatibility the MDRS can be indefinitly
> expanded as a metastructure, ready to support the Intersem
> (semiotic/semantic internet) needs.
> >> Saying just "no mapping at registration time" is not good enough for
>> >> What about if you want to change the holder or adminc or techc of a
>> >> Should you do mapping then, if the domain name is typed by the user or
>> >> Is a transfer of a domain name "registration time"?
>> > Good point. What if the Registry sotfware does not consider
>> > holder/adminc/techc and uses a different system?
>> They all do. They might use different terminology.
> All ccTLDs do not adhere to the ICANN WHOIS concept which actually is
> illegal but tollerated in most of the countries (violation with local
> privacy laws). Zone Managers can be at any level and be sure that many ULD
> managers will not even know that ICANN exists or what it could have to do
> with their Private Class TLD. ICANN is only for class IN.
> > What is the Registry only use local script/language interfaces?
>> Many only support interfaces in local script and local language. I do not
>> see any problem with that.
> Sorry, I meant at application layer, not at user layer.
> Internationalization means that local language is embedded in English.
> Multilingualization means that local language replaces English.
> This is the conflict I had with Unicode because their Globalization is
> internationalization+localization+flangtag-filtering. In the fussy process
> we identified the existence of multilinguistics as the discipline of the
> cyberntics of the linguistic diversity. How languages interelates among
> other languages and/or cultural entitities.
> >> No, I rather see that I as a developer can do whatever I want to make
>> >> things easier for the users, and that might include that I try to do
>> >> mappings of codepoints that are not PVALID, or complete changes of some
>> >> things that might be domain names (hard to know sometimes) to something
>> >> are domain names (different separators between labels for example).
>> > and French/Latin language majuscule support?
>> I can not be more precise than what I was above.
>> >> So to answer your question Lisa: No, it is not clear what characters
>> >> suggested to be mapped, but we do not even know where or who has the
>> >> responsibility to do the mapping -- if any. In the case of HTTP, is
>> >> done in the web browser or on the server side, in the cgi?
>> > I have some difficulty here: how can an IDN be mapped on the server
>> > Should it not necessarily be mapped on the user side so it can be
>> > resolved to that very server?
>> "server" as "server side" in HTTP. Not server side as in DNS server.
> Yes? I still miss it. I might need an map.
> >> For example how do a web browser know whether the ajax / json call is
>> >> be "a registration" or not? A situation when mapping should explicitly
>> >> occur? It can not, and because of that browsers should not include any
>> >> mapping at all. Ever.
>> >> That is one view, and of course you can find the arguments the other
>> >> around as well.
>> > I agree with your position. Would you know of an online
>> > document/discussion on this matter, or a con/pro list?
>> I think the IDNA mailing list archive is a good source... :-)
> OK :-)
> But I thought about something more formal and organised.
> I compiled all the WG/LC remarks in a Draft. Indicating which had been
> answered. I lost the count of the non-answered ones.
> (or better reading: http://wikidna.org/index.php?title=WG-IDNA_LC)
> >> And this is why I think the current mapping document is as good as we
>> >> can get it -- and why I think (like Pete) TR46 is too strong. Because
>> it is
>> >> very wrong to explicitly ask for mappings the way it does.
>> > Do you know if other possibilities have been expressed by W3C, or SDOs?
>> TR46 is one of the documents. I know ITU and UNESCO also are doing work,
>> but they have been waiting for the RFCs to be published. ISOC might come out
>> with something. ICANN might write recommendations. Etc.
> Dont you think a common work could be usefull ? Users are not interested in
> consensus, but in multiconsensus, i.e. a consensus in each of the position
> groups, and a general consensus on how each position bridges with the
> others. Beging in using a single terminology and possible comparison tables.
> >> What *might* be ok and good to do is to say what codepoints can be
>> >> mapped in various contexts to other characters, but I think for example
>> >> definition of bundles in the IANA registries to some degree do that.
>> >> not mapping from PVALID to other PVALID of course. So that people know
>> >> IF one work in a specific context (certain language for example), THEN
>> >> MIGHT be interesting to map from A to B.
>> > Do you consider the possibility of mapping on a TLD basis?
>> I think the user wants mapping based on other criteria.
> For example Project.FRA wants majuscule support based on .fra while .fr may
> npt mind or address the need differently.
> But of course the TLDs already today via the language tables do implement
>> in some cases bundling and various policy based issues.
> I am interested in what I call mecalanguages. i.e. natural languages as to
> be spoken by machines. The risk is that they become the referents and that
> languages rigidifies or split (machine/human). But the risk is, now on an
> interactive basis, equivalent to dictionnaries and grammars. The
> mecalanguages must be able to adapt and support dolwn to avalects (languages
> of each individual avatar's styles) (hundreds of billions). The only serious
> non-physical personal authentication is based on avalects as it betrays the
> cerebral status.
> Now, the challenge is to work on the invarients, i.e. the semantic traits
> or atoms, that can then be passed as metadata (as one passes Alabels) and
> restored through different mecalanguages. This gives the idea of Ulabels
> that could display differently depending on the context.
> This is certainly possible as part of the ML-DNS (multilayer domain names
> pile system - the minimum of it being the Alabel/Ulabel pile. Domain Names
> cannot refer to invariant, but semantic addressing can do it while using the
> DNS as a support. This is one of the targets of the Project.FRA in using its
> namespace as a taxonomy for an open ontology.
> >> So I would say the mapping document we have is good.
>> > How would you qualify it? a reminder, a protection against too stringent
>> > or lax behaviours, a guidance, a reference, a open link to further work?
>> > Is its informational nature not a problem while it completes a standard
>> > track work?
>> We do not know yet. Let people try, and we see. Having guidelines is ok,
>> and probably what developers need.
>> But mandatory rules, nope.
> Who in your opinion should work these guidleines after the experience of
> this WG, i.e. working relations with Unicode, IUCG, i-DNs, ICANN, ITU, etc.
> We have a MAAYA Unesco meeting on 23/24 to prepare a book on
> multilingualism in cyberspace. I think we should start with some kind of
> ontology of multinguinstics and cyberlinguism, i.e. the way languages
> behaves together and the way cyberspace affects languages. But we will know
> better when we know what others may mean when we use the same words as us.
> This is why I say that now we have built the Internet side IDNA, one has to
> consider the User side and the intrastructural side (guidelines, tables,
> information, registries, etc. ): where and how the developper information
> should be stored and found.
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