Not Folding Case (was: Re: Eszett ( was AW: Esszett, Final Sigma, ZWJ and ZWNJ)

[LB]

Wonderful!
not only we do not know our language! But Google, Microsoft and
Unicode who deform it permanently. They know it better than us . Not
only do I understand we are stupid, but the French language is a
canard.

We were very polite, in face of expert scientists who wade past nine
years, and especially show that they do not even read an email. JFC
has explained that the use is 50/50, that accented capital letters are
not on the AZERTY keyboard. But perhaps instead of "her says" it would
be more efficient to read what the grammarian, printers, etc.  say and
the French people want.

I do not expect that these learned experts internatinalisation are
level with their colleagues from the ISO and can read the Wikipedia
page on the subject. But I have confidence in their tool (Google
Translation) I will quote the duck, pardon the comment, the French
Academy.

"Accentuation Caps"

One can only deplore the use of accents on capital letters is
floating. Seen in the manuscripts certain tendency to the omission of
accents. In typography, sometimes, some remove all the accents on the
capitals under the guise of modernism, in fact to reduce the cost of
composition.

It should however be noted that French, the emphasis has full value
spelling. Its absence is slowing down the reading, is hesitating on
pronunciation, and can even be misleading. The same goes for the
cedilla and diaeresis.

Care is therefore in good typography, to make systematic use of
accented capitals, including the preposition TO, as do of course all
the dictionaries, starting with the Dictionnaire de l'Académie
française, or grammar, as the proper use of strike but also the
Imprimerie Nationale, the Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc.. As for the
manuscripts, typescripts, it is clear that their authors, for the sake
of clarity and correction would have an incentive to also follow this
rule"

--
LB


2009/2/25 Martin Duerst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>:
> This is a well-known phenomenon. French people get told that there
> are no accents on upper-case letters in school, and then live on with
> that belief. Thereafter, they regularly see upper-case letters with
> accents, but they don't realize that they might have to change their
> beliefs because reading these upper-case letters with accents happens
> unconciously. Some even might claim that something is wrong when
> somebody shows them an example of an upper-case letter with an
> accent.
>
> The best way to confirm that accents can and do appear on upper-case
> letters is to check the "Petit Robert", the most widely used
> French-French dictionary.
>
> Regards,    Martin.
>
> P.S.: Effects such as the above are one reason why Internationalization
>      is difficult. It's not enough to ask a few native speakers/writers,
>      one has to find out who the real experts are and confirm things
>      in the field with an open eye.
>
> P.P.S.: The above is not just heresay, I had several such experiences
>        with relatives of mine.
>
>
> At 06:22 09/02/25, Mark Davis wrote:
>>Moreover, the supposedly required deaccenting of uppercase French appears to be a canard. Not only is it contested by internationalization experts like Michel Suignard, but even casual browsing will find respectable usage of uppercase with accents such as:
>>
>><http://www.lemonde.fr/>http://www.lemonde.fr/
>>
>>eg on that page "LE MONDE DES Sテ嘘IES", plus the tabs.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 13:12, Kenneth Whistler <<mailto:kenw at sybase.com>kenw at sybase.com> wrote:
>>>jfc said:
>>>
>>>> May I add that French supports calls for uper cases NOT to be folded
>>>> but to be supported as characters by their own.
>>>> This means that "<http://ecole.fr>ecole.fr", "テδゥ<http://cole.fr>cole.fr" and "Ecole.fr" are to be three
>>>> different domain names.
>>>
>>>which is just silly. The implication of that is that the
>>>following would also be different domain names:
>>>
>>>eCole.fr
>>>ecOle.fr
>>>ecoLe.fr
>>>ecolE.fr
>>>ECole.fr
>>>EcOle.fr
>>>EcoLe.fr
>>>EcolE.fr
>>>ECOle.fr
>>>ECoLe.fr
>>>EColE.fr
>>>
>>>etc., etc., for 32 different strings, before even starting
>>>to consider the accent folding issues.
>>>
>>>This is incompatible both with existing ASCII domain name
>>>usage *and* with IDNA 2003 domain name usage. And it
>>>would result in a combinatorial bundling nightmare requiring
>>>2^n items be bundled for every n Latin (or Greek or Cyrillic)
>>>letter in a domain name.
>>>
>>>And no, you cannot get away with claiming this would only
>>>apply to the first letter of a domain name, because there
>>>is no mechanism in IDNA for parsing out words in domain
>>>name labels, viz.:
>>>
>>><http://dangerecole.blogspot.com/>http://dangerecole.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>as opposed to:
>>>
>>><http://www.ecoleprinceton.org/>http://www.ecoleprinceton.org/
>>>
>>>or
>>>
>>><http://www.ecolephilippegaulier.com/>http://www.ecolephilippegaulier.com/
>>>
>>>--Ken
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Idna-update mailing list
>>><mailto:Idna-update at alvestrand.no>Idna-update at alvestrand.no
>>>http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Idna-update mailing list
>>Idna-update at alvestrand.no
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>
>
> #-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp      mailto:duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp
>
>
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>