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On 01/30/11 22:50, Bernard Aboba wrote:
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">One approach is to tunnel the signaling protocol
over HTTP. This requires support for bi-directional
communications, such as can be provided by BOSH, or
Websockets. In these architectures the web client
communicates via HTTP with a “Connection Manager” which
encapsulates/decapsulates the signaling messages and routes
them appropriately on the backend. </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
I think that no matter what we define (or not) as the signalling
protocol, it will be carried in a fashion that looks like HTTP or
HTTPS (most probably HTTPS) to intermediaries and firewalls.<br>
Not using WebSockets (if it's done yet) seems like a strange choice;
if WebSockets are usable for anything, they should be usable for
this application.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BLU152-ds1581E888DAE43D287D3FB393E20@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">To provide interoperability, specifications for
encapsulation of signaling messages within HTTP are
required. Examples include:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html">XEP-0124</a>:
Bidirectional-streams Over Synchronous HTTP (BOSH)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0206.html">XEP-0206</a>:
XMPP over BOSH<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moffitt-xmpp-over-websocket">An
XMPP Sub-protocol for Websocket</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Information on BOSH implementations can be found
here:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/technology-overview/bosh/#impl">http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/technology-overview/bosh/#impl</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no">rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no">mailto:rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com">Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bernard_aboba@hotmail.com">bernard_aboba@hotmail.com</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:richard@shockey.us">richard@shockey.us</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:erik@hookflash.com">erik@hookflash.com</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jonathan.rosenberg@skype.net">jonathan.rosenberg@skype.net</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtc-web@alvestrand.no">rtc-web@alvestrand.no</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RTW] [dispatch] Does RTC-WEB need
to pick a signaling protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I pretty much agree with what Bernard and
Johathan Rosenberg have said.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">There are just a couple of issues I would like to
understand better:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left: 0.75in;
text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><span style="">-<span style="font: 7pt
"Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">I suppose these Javascript libraries can be
cached on the browser and need not be downloaded every time
the application/site is accessed? (These are probably a
common practices in Javascript and Browsers but are good to
clarify in this discussion.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left: 0.75in;
text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><span style="">-<span style="font: 7pt
"Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">It may be easy for a web developer to use the
client side Javascript library, but I believe the challenge
may be bigger on the server side, where scalability etc.
become issues. How about the server side, is there something
ready-made for that? I suppose the Javascript on the browser
can’t necessarily connect to vanilla SIP or XMPP servers but
some HTTP/WebSocket/TLS tunneling and connection management
magic is needed, especially when dealing with HTTP
intermediaries. (But presumably the same issues would be
faced if we “picked” SIP or XMPP.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Markus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none;
border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
-moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no">rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no">mailto:rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>ext Bernard Aboba<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 30 January, 2011 07:35<br>
<b>To:</b> Richard Shockey; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:erik@hookflash.com">erik@hookflash.com</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jonathan.rosenberg@skype.net">jonathan.rosenberg@skype.net</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rtc-web@alvestrand.no">rtc-web@alvestrand.no</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RTW] [dispatch] Does RTC-WEB need
to pick a signaling protocol?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">> Duh ...
what are we abandoning 10 years of work?<br>
<br>
The web is a "generative" platform that supports not just
protocols, but also execution of code. This enables the
platform to be extended in a virtually infinite number of
ways, including the development of Javascript signaling
APIs, without needing to add yet more core code to the
browser. This is the preferred approach unless it can be
shown that something *absolutely* must be natively
supported (as was discussed at the workshop, STUN/TURN
authorization for peer-to-peer media is probably an
example of something that *does* need to be native). <br>
<br>
As an example of what is possible, there is an excellent
Javascript library for XMPP (strophe, see <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://code.stanziq.com/strophe/">http://code.stanziq.com/strophe/</a>).
Poking around, it would appear that there are a number of
Javascript libraries that claim to provide support for SIP
(such as <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://phono.com/">http://phono.com/</a>),
although I have no idea of their usefulness. <br>
<br>
Given the generality and power of the web platform and the
ease with which sophisticated signaling libraries can be
implemented today, the bar for getting additional code
into any browser is going to be quite high. If you doubt
this, ask the build-master of your favorite browser for
the requirements for checkin of a complete SIP stack :) <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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