I agree with what Silvia says here. Similarly, I believe royalty free is the goal/requirement for the new internet audio codec currently being standardized by the IETF. Furthermore, the term IPR free is also wrong since the designers/contributors that make the codec royalty free usually have IPR in th codec. The best one can do is to do your best in avoiding other known IPR.<div>
<br></div><div>Roar<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Silvia Pfeiffer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com">silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Where is the MPEG-LA patent pool for WebM? As far as I can tell this has just been a hollow announcement, but MPEG-LA have not been able to set up such a patent pool yet. Maybe it's because there aren't any patents out there that are being infringed? Unfortunately, the non-existence of infringing patents can never be proven and this situation is therefore always open to creating fear, uncertainty and doubt.<br>
<br>Also note that going through an actual standardisation process and becoming part of a license pool by MPEG-LA doesn't actually protect you from lawsuits for patent infringement, see e.g.<br><a href="http://www.itnews.com.au/News/74186,apple-samsung-and-sandisk-hit-by-mp3-patent-claim.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.itnews.com.au/News/74186,apple-samsung-and-sandisk-hit-by-mp3-patent-claim.aspx</a><br>
<br>MPEG-LA patent pools are only there to protect you from lawsuits of patents that are being made available through the pool. The pool is not an insurance against patent infringement lawsuits - not even from those that have joined the patent pool, as the law suit of Lucent against MicroSoft has taught us: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcatel-Lucent_v._Microsoft" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcatel-Lucent_v._Microsoft</a><br>
<br>As said before: IPR issues are not a good decision factor on which to select a codec for common use. Royalty-free is important. And the rest should be based on technical merit.<br><br>Regards,<br><font color="#888888">Silvia.<br>
<br><br></font><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div class="h5">
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:46 PM, David Singer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:singer@apple.com" target="_blank">singer@apple.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">I have to agree. If IPR issues are what we want to avoid, VP8 seems like a poor choice (e.g. <<a href="http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/mpeg-la-looking-at-patents-for-googles-vp8webm-video/" target="_blank">http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/mpeg-la-looking-at-patents-for-googles-vp8webm-video/</a>>).<div>
<div><div></div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 21, 2010, at 13:38 , <a href="mailto:markus.isomaki@nokia.com" target="_blank">markus.isomaki@nokia.com</a> wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word" lang="EN-US">
<div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Hi Peter, all,</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">About the video codec: Are there any arguments on why VP8 would not have IPR issues? It is available as an open source implementation, but that does not mean there are no IPR against it. My understanding is that the IPR situation wrt. VP8 is still unclear and thus risky. The other issue with VP8 is, as far as I know, the lack of a clear spec out of which independent interoperable implementations can be created.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">So I don’t at least buy the argument that we should choose VP8 as mandatory to implement video codec because of IPR reasons.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">I’m working on a separate review on Harald’s drafts (thanks for putting them together) and will come back to the codec issue there in more detail, but just wanted to respond to Peter’s point here.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)">Regards,</span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> Markus</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"> </span></div><div style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181, 196, 223);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span> </span><a href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a><span> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span> </span></b>ext Peter Musgrave<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>17 December, 2010 13:48<br><b>To:</b><span> </span>Harald Alvestrand<br><b>Cc:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:rtc-web@alvestrand.no" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">rtc-web@alvestrand.no</a>;<span> </span><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a>; Ted Hardie<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [dispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-alvestrand-dispatch-rtcweb-protocols-00</span></div></div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I'd also like to echo Alan's thanks for these drafts. </div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
</div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">The protocol doc is very clear. [If you read only one dispatch draft this Christmas, make it this one. ;-) ]</div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> </div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
One observation to the group. The mandatory to implement video CODEC is VP8 (presumably since it does not have IPR issues - which some other choices would have). </div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
</div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Regards, </div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
</div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Peter Musgrave</div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
</div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> </div></div><div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Nits</span></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Introduction</span></div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">s/</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier">veichle/vehicle/</span></div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier">Section 2 Para "Within each.."</span></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier">s/implementaiton/implementation/</span></div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier">Section 4 Para1</span></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier">"such as" (something missing here?)</span></div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier"> </span></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier">Section 5 Para2</span></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier">"There is no third mandatory to implement" </span></div>
</div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Courier">? Was there a mention of a third before. Not sure why this statement is there.</span></div>
</div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> </div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
</div><div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On 2010-11-10, at 6:34 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote:</div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<br><br></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">This is the overview document for the IETF-related RTC-WEB work.<br><br>-------- Original Message --------</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="padding:0cm" nowrap valign="top"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;text-align:right">
<b>Subject:</b></div></td><td style="padding:0cm"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">New Version Notification for draft-alvestrand-dispatch-rtcweb-protocols-00</div>
</td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0cm" nowrap valign="top"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;text-align:right"><b>Date:</b></div></td><td style="padding:0cm">
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Wed, 10 Nov 2010 03:31:05 -0800 (PST)</div></td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0cm" nowrap valign="top"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;text-align:right">
<b>From:</b></div></td><td style="padding:0cm"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">IETF I-D Submission Tool<span> </span><a href="mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><idsubmission@ietf.org></a></div>
</td></tr><tr><td style="padding:0cm" nowrap valign="top"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;text-align:right"><b>To:</b></div></td><td style="padding:0cm">
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href="mailto:harald@alvestrand.no" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">harald@alvestrand.no</a></div>
</td></tr></tbody></table><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> </p><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
A new version of I-D, draft-alvestrand-dispatch-rtcweb-protocols-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Harald Alvestrand and posted to the IETF repository.</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Filename: draft-alvestrand-dispatch-rtcweb-protocols</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
Revision: 00</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Title: Overview: Real Time Protocols for Brower-based Applications</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
Creation_date: 2010-11-11</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">WG ID: Independent Submission</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
Number_of_pages: 9</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">Abstract:</pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">This document gives an overview of a protocol suite intended for use</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
with real-time applications that can be deployed in browsers - "real</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">time communication on the Web".</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">It intends to serve as a starting and coordination point to make sure</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
all the parts that are needed to achieve this goal are findable, and</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">that the parts that belong in the Internet protocol suite are fully</pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">specified and on the right publication track.</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">This work is an attempt to synthesize the input of many people, but</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
makes no claims to fully represent the views of any of them. All</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">parts of the document should be regarded as open for discussion.</pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
</pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">The IETF Secretariat.</pre>
<pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"> </pre><pre style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">
</pre></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">_______________________________________________<br>dispatch mailing list<br><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
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</div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div><font color="#888888"><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><div>David Singer</div><div>Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.</div></div></div></span></div></span></span>
</div>
<br></font></div></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<div class="im"><br>
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<a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtc-web" target="_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtc-web</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>