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<p class="MsoNormal">Mark: <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">While I agree with most of your response to Michael, I still don’t think the “t” extension should be extended for this as it is not a transform, and I’m still not totally convinced that the correct solution _<i>for a generalized case</i>_
of code switching, extensive borrowing, or other contact-language scenarios is to capture everything in a single tag.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Peter<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Ietf-languages [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis ??<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 6, 2017 9:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> ietflang IETF Languages Discussion <ietf-languages@iana.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Spanglish<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Mark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Michael Everson <<a href="mailto:everson@evertype.com" target="_blank">everson@evertype.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think there is no requirement for an extensible mechanism to “admix” any two random languages.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The value of a generative mechanism is that one doesn't have to anticipate ahead of time what users find useful. Take BCP47 itself. If it turns out that some one finds en-JP useful, then
it can be represented without waiting for a registration process — which may not succeed just because a registrar finds "en-JP" not meaningful or useful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The key for such a mechanism to work is that the semantics can be derived from the components (plus syntax).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Moreover, while es-spanglis is user-friendly (for the bibliographers and librarians who are likely the ONLY users of such tags), this es-t-h0-en is just a load of mysterious letters.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">BCP47 is not intended to be for end users; that is nice where possible, but not a requirement. The syntax (limitation to 8 ascii-only alphanum) puts restrictions on readability; but BCP47 is
meant for internal codes. Any good interface will supply a human readable name. end-user ought to see a human-readable name in their language. Pick a random point in the language subtag registry to get something like 'cmm'. What percentage of bibliographers
know right away that that means "Michigamea"?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">And it is NOT the ONLY user of such TAGS (as long as you are shouting), which you apparently didn't read from my Jan 5 email. We are not focused on the tagging of content side as much as
the selection of content.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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1) contact languages are NOT “transformations” so your -t- makes no sense<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">There is already discussion of this in the email.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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2) what the heck is h-zero supposed to mean? Oh. hybrid zero. And there’s a hybrid one. And what’s that?<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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Nobody will know.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">People will know who read the documentation. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> es-t-h0-en Spanglish Spanish with an admixture of English</span><br>
<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> en-t-h0-es Spanglish English with an admixture of Spanish</span><br>
<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> Note: the boundary between these two will be rather fuzzy, like most cases in identifying. We'd recommend that es-t-h0-en be used unless English clearly predominates.</span><br>
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No, we wouldn’t. We’d recommend that the dominant language, whether en or es, be used, whichever it may be.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The "unless predominates" is meant to signify the ~50% case. Unless you have a clause like that, content that is about 50:50 doesn't have a clear choice.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> One could then also have</span><br>
<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">></span><br>
<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> es-t-hi-h0-en Spanglish translated from Hindi</span><br>
<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> A second key 'h1' is defined indicating that the source language for transform is a hybrid, much has we have done with the transliteration s0 and d0 keys. The value of h1 is a language tag that indicating that
the source language for -t- is a hybrid with that language, allowing formulations like</span><br>
<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">></span><br>
<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> es-t-hi-h1-en Spanish translated from Hinglish</span><br>
<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> es-t-hi-h0-en-h1-en Spanglish translated from Hinglish</span><br>
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You’ve got to be kidding.<br>
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This is clever, Mark, but it doesn’t address any actual user requirements, and the notation you propose is absurdly opaque.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Again, see opaqueness above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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> Hybrid locales<br>
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Locales? There’s no Spanglish locale envisioned.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">By you. You don't happen to be the only user of BCP47.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> have intermixed content from 2 (or more) languages, often with one language's grammatical structure applied to words in another. See also <a href="https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spanglish" target="_blank">https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spanglish</a>
for the use of the term “hybrid”.</span><br>
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<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> More importantly, it doesn't work for a very common use case: locale selection. To communicate requests for localized content and internationalization services, locales are used, which are an extension of language
tags. When people pick a language from a menu, internally they are picking a locale (en-GB, es-419, etc). If you want an application to support Spanglish or Hinglish, then you have to have a locale to represent that.</span><br>
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I don’t think anybody wants to do this.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">We have had concrete requests from product groups within Google for hybrid locale identifiers, and not just one or two of them. This is not a whim.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Note that this does not prevent 'spanglis' from being registered. If the use of an extension is too opaque for you, go for it. It just doesn't meet our needs.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span class="gmail-m8915112829430350375gmail-">> Luckily, this falls within the scope of the T extension.</span><br>
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Not usefully.<o:p></o:p></p>
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Michael<br>
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<a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages" target="_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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