<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:times new roman,serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="'times new roman', serif"><div style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-right:0px"><div></div></div><div style="background-color:transparent;margin-top:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-right:0px">Mark</div></font><div><div><font face="'times new roman', serif"><i><span style="font-style:normal"><i></i></span><i></i></i></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Peter Constable <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank">petercon@microsoft.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">There is enough of a conventional understanding of what “de” means to make it useful in public interchange. A variant subtag, inherently, is denoting something
narrower, with an even greater level of specificity implied. If there isn’t greater specificity, then you don’t have a useful variant subtag.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline">It *is* more specific, and *is* useful. "de-simple" is clearly intended to be a simple form of "de". "fr-simple" is intended to be simple form of "fr", etc.</div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">That’s all fundamentals about subtags generally. Now let’s consider the kinds of greater specificity that can be useful in a generic variant subtag. In the case
of, say, “1900”, the tag implicitly has a clear semantic that can potentially be applied to any language — it’s pretty obvious that this would denote some language-related conventions that are somehow associated with the year 1900.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">But in this case, the proposed subtag is intended to denote some other kind of specificity. It’s a specificity that can make sense when described in terms of
a particular language. But to make it generic across languages, the only way to have it remain meaningful is to identify some common point of reference that can be applied across languages.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">You could say, Well, it means whatever Wikipedia decides it wants it to mean. </span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline">I didn't say that; I think you may have quickly skimmed what I said. What I believe is that having this level of specificity would be sufficient for the majority of the people that would need this tag. They would want to mark versions of content as simpler than others.</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline"><br></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline"><a href="http://constable.com/fr-simple/..">constable.com/fr-simple/..</a>..</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline">vs</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline"><a href="http://constable.com/fr/.">constable.com/fr/.</a>..</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline"></div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">But, is that really what we’d want to do? Would we want to accept “ibmsimple” or
“sirisimple”? Besides cherry-picking products/applications/organizations we’d allow to have such tags, are these tags that are really useful in public interchange?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline">The only reason IBM would need "ibmsimple", or rather "fr-simple-ibm666" for some IBM standard, is if they had multiple "simple" versions. </div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I really think we should register a variant subtag in this case if it can be described as a specific variant of a particular language without reference to any
single application, and if that’s a variant that has potential use beyond a single application.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline">That just promotes a needless proliferation of subtags, to no particularly good end.</div> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline">One should keep simple things simple.</div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:'times new roman',serif;display:inline"><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Peter<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="150bad7540f2182d__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis ??<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 30, 2015 10:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Constable <<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank">petercon@microsoft.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Michael Everson <<a href="mailto:everson@evertype.com" target="_blank">everson@evertype.com</a>>; ietflang IETF Languages Discussion <<a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target="_blank">ietf-languages@iana.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il</a></span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Language Subtag Registration -- "wpsimple"<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class="h5">
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think the opposite. We don't fully specify what "de" means when coming from any of thousands of sources, yet is it quite useful. Overspecification makes the system *less* useful rather than *more* useful.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">de-simple would be perfectly meaningful, and mark some simplified version of de. Anyone with a website that needs two versions, ordinary and simple, could use that.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">IF it became necessary to have further qualifications, those could be added:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">de-simple-din666<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">or<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">de-simple-wikiped<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The advantage of this system is that a consumer of the tag can use the standard progressive truncation and get something that is more likely to be useful for the user.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with Michael that this is a common enough need to have a standardized tag. A private use tag for a common need just makes everyone's lives more complicated.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mark<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 8:22 AM, Peter Constable <<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank">petercon@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think that generalization would not be helpful. Once you do that, then foo-wpsimple becomes available for anybody to use with absolutely no convention as to what "wpsimple" is supposed to mean, making it basically useless except in a
private context.<br>
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<span>Peter</span><br>
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<span>-----Original Message-----</span><br>
<span>From: Ietf-languages [mailto:<a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>] On Behalf Of Michael Everson</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 6:07 AM<br>
To: ietflang IETF Languages Discussion <<a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target="_blank">ietf-languages@iana.org</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il</a><br>
Subject: Re: Language Subtag Registration -- "wpsimple"<br>
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On 30 Oct 2015, at 01:54, Peter Constable <<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank">petercon@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> We should have variant subtags that refer to a particular variety. I don't mind if that variety happens to be one associated with a particular organization or application, so long as it has potential utility beyond that organization or application.<br>
<br>
I have already said that wpsimple would be extensible to other Wikimedia Foundation variants.<br>
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Michael<br>
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