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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Valid point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis ?<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 22, 2012 6:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Constable<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ietflang IETF Languages Discussion; Michael Everson; Alain LaBonté<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: gender voice variants<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You may have missed a message I wrote on these threads. If apps are all monolithic, then I'd agree with you. For us they are not. You can be forming an app out of separate components. These components are used with a variety of apps. The
main app would need to communicate the level of desired formality to each of the modules it uses. Otherwise you end up with a ransom-note effect.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Here's what I wrote (Dec 19):<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"<span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:black">We actually have had a use case for </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt">formal<span style="color:black"> vs informal.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:black">Some (online) products are meant to be more 'social', and thus informal (du), while some products are meant to be more 'business', thus formal (Sie). The problem comes in when you have shared online
components. You <i>really</i> don't want to mix du and Sie on the same page, addressing the same user.</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;color:black">When the component is used within a social product, the product should select the locale "de-informal"* for the component, while when used in a business product, the component should use the locale
"de-formal"*."</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://plus.google.com/114199149796022210033" target="_blank">Mark</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i>— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —</i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Peter Constable <<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com" target="_blank">petercon@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Michael Everson<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></strong> December 21, 2012 3:05 AM<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">To:</span></strong> ietflang IETF Languages Discussion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> Musing.<br>
><br>
> A language tag applied to a run of text tells the any person or <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> process "This text is in the English language" and a subtag might
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> make precise for instance that "This English text is in Oxford spelling".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Sure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
> A voice tag applied to a run of text tells a computer "Read this <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> text aloud in a woman's voice". A voice tag does not change the
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> content of any text being read out: The voice will read text from
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> the New York Times, or a Help dialogue box equally. A voice tag
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> selects a voice only.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In this scenario, the voice indication would not, I think, be part of the language tag on the text since it is not an attribute of the text. Rather it’s an independent request for certain
processing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">However, the text-to-speech resource could potentially be tagged with a language tag that includes a female voice variant subtag: it is an attribute of that resource. Conceptually, one might
argue that the voice is not a linguistic characteristic since a woman’s voice could be used to narrate text that uses male-speaker linguistic constructs, but I don't know a likely a scenario that would be. <br>
<br>
> An audience tag will tell a process "Choose a set of localized <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> strings which address me as a male or as a female".
<br>
><br>
> Some other tag whose name I can't think of will tell a process <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> "Choose a set of localized strings which make it look as though
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> you are talking to me as if you were a man or a woman".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The sex of the source and audience can, as we've seen, be independent factors. The sex of the TTS voice is conceptually distinct from the sex of the source, but it's not clear to me how much
of a real need there would be to distinguish those.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><br>
> A manners tag will tell a process "Use a set of localized strings <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">> which use a formal or informal register".
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Potentially, though it’s not clear to me that an app would support such tailoring. It seems more likely that an app developer would decide that they want to adopt a particular level of formality
for their app. However, a formality tag could still be useful in maintaining string resources, e.g., in a translation memory.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#888888"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#888888"><br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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