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Hi.<br><br>João Miguel Neves joao at silvaneves.org<br>Tue Aug 30 15:38:11 CEST 2011<br><br><br><br>> Em 26-08-2011 17:48, António H F P A Emiliano (FCSH/UNL) escreveu:<br>>> ------------------------------<br>>>><br>>>> Message: 4<br>>>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:47:00 +0100<br>>>> From: Jo?o Miguel Neves <joao at silvaneves.org><br>>>> To: ietf-languages at alvestrand.no<br>>>> Subject: Re: Language subtag registration for acor1990 (ammended from<br>>>> ao1990)<br>>>> Message-ID: <4E566E74.7000904 at silvaneves.org><br>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252<br>>>><br>>>> Em 25-08-2011 15:48, Ant?nio H F P A Emiliano (FCSH/UNL) escreveu:<br>>>>><br>>>>> I think this is the most simple (and less problematic) procedure .<br>>>>><br>>>>> pre1911 - Traditional Portuguese orthography (late 18th century to<br>>>>> early 20th century)<br>>>>> 1911 - Portuguese orthography of 1911<br>>>>> 1945 - Portuguese orthography of 1945 (Conven??o Ortogr?fica<br>>>>> Luso-Brasileira, 1945)<br>>>>> 1990 - Portuguese orthography of 1990 (Acordo Ortogr?fico da L?ngua<br>>>>> Portuguesa, 1990) --><br>>>>> --> alternatives: 1991 (ratification), 2008 (transitional<br>>>>> enforcement), 2014 (full enforcement?)<br>>><br>>>> Why did you choose to leave the 1931 agreement implemented in 1940 in<br>>>> Portugal ainda in 1943 in Brazil out?<br>>><br>>> Sorry I don’t understand this (the paragraph seems to be truncated).<br>>> Please clarify.<br>>> This is an important issue.<br>>><br>> There's an international agreement between Portugal and Brazil in 1931<br>> that was implemented officially in 1940 in Portugal and in 1943 in<br>> Brasil. According to claims I've seen most of it's contents is from the<br>> Portuguese 1911 reform.<br><br>Information posted at Language Links concurs with the information provided by you and Wikipedia regarding the 1931 agreement:<br>http://www.languagetranslation.com/blogs/?p=754<br>(I also found additional informaiton online<br>that suggests that both Brazil and Portugal agreed to this again in 1943 -- but the 1931 date seems fine with me; it's the first agreement; but see the pro-reform page/site -- in English: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~ozideas/wportref.htm<br>The second resource that mentions the second 1943 agreement is in French; it seems to be a good source).<br><br>> "1931 <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pt/wiki/1931> - Primeiro<br>> Acordo Ortográfico por iniciativa da Academia Brasileira de Letras<br>> <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pt/wiki/Academia_Brasileira_de_Letras><br>> e aprovado pela Academia das Ciências de Lisboa<br>> <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pt/wiki/Academia_das_Ci%C3%AAncias_de_Lisboa>,<br>> em Portugal publicado no /Diário do Govêrno/, n.º 120, I Série, 25 de<br>> Maio de 1931."<br><br>> If we go for international treaties, then it would be: 1931, 1945, 1990.<br>> I agree we can extend to 1911 given the huge reform it was. <br>> This means<br>> I'll be searching reference material for 1945 and 1990. Feel free to<br>> help in these or all of them.<br><br>I am not sure if the following online paper by Fiorin -- a Portuguese author; but
published in French -- which I've translated / summarized parts of below (in parentheses),
is helpful for cataloguing the 1911 reform (which was apparently agreed
upon by both Brazil & Portugal in 1931; then annulled in 1934,
then with little change readopted in a second 1943 agreement followed by
a new one in 1945 which was met with protests in Brazil and so the 1943
agreement was returned to in Brazil in 1955; a third accord was agreed
upon in 1971, and the 1990 agreement is apparently an effort to work out some
differences remaining in the Brazilian and Portuguese orthographies).<br>
<br>
The 1911 agreement, according, to the paper by Fiorin in French (which
seems reliable), seems to have been based on a 1904 work by Anceto dos
Reis Goncalves Viana who began coming up with principles of orthography
beginning 1885<br><br>
(José Luiz Fiorin<br>
Université de São Paulo, L'accord sur l'orthographe: une question de politique linguistique<br>
<br>
http://ressources-cla.univ-fcomte.fr/gerflint/BresilSPECIAL1/fiorin.pdf ;<br>
<br>
"La troisième période est intitulée période de l’orthographe historico-scientifique<br>
ou simplifiée. Elle débute avec la publication, en 1904, de l’oeuvre Orthographe<br>
nationale, d’Aniceto dos Reis Gonçalves Viana."<br>
"a) élimination complète de tous les symboles servant à représenter les phonèmes<br>
grecs : th, ph, ch [= k], rh et y ;"<br>{ elimination of all symbles representing Greek sounds (phonemes; in vogue at the time) }<br>
<br>
"b) réduction des consonnes redoublées en consonnes simples, à l’exception de rr et de<br>
ss, qui ont des valeurs phonétiques propres;"<br>{ reduction of doubled consonants, making these single consonants, excepting rr and ss . . . " }<br>
<br>
"c) élimination des consonnes nulles qui n’ont aucune influence sur la prononciation de<br>
la voyelle précédente;"<br>{ elimination of silent consonants that do not influence the preceding vowel }<br>
<br>
"d) régularisation de l’accentuation graphique."<br>
{ regularization of accents }<br>
<br>
In 1911 the Portuguese created a commission which adopted, with small changes, the reforms proposed by Goncalves Viana.<br>
It was made official in Portugual without Brazilian input. It was
adopted by both in 1931 by an agreement / treaty concluded between the
Brazilian Academy of Letters and the Academy of Sciences in Lisbon. In
1934 however the accord was annulled.<br>
<br>
In 1943 the Luso-Bresilienne Convention was signed, reestablishing the
1931 agreement. This was approved by the Brazilian Academy of Letters
1943.<br>
<br>
In 1945 as a result of divergent interpretations of orthographic rules
the Brazilians and Portuguese got together again to create a documemt
explaining them, "Conclusions . . . " [I have the name in French only]. The modifications were great . . . and so it's viewed as a new reform.<br><br>
It favored Portuguese pronuciations. In 1955 Brazil returned to the 1943
accord which meant schism for the two countries' orthographies.<br>
[Some differences in the two orthographies remained to hopefully be
eliminated mostly with the 1990 accord.] That's the gist of what I've
read.)<br><br>Hope this is what you are looking for.<br><br>Best,<br><br>--C. E. Whitehead<br>cewcathar@hotmail.com <br><br>>> I mean, if you need a <1990> tag why not throw in some other tags that<br>>> make sense and form a set? See my arguments elsewhere in the discussion.<br>>><br>> I would have no problem doing that, if it didn't take time. I'm not a<br>> specialist on the language, I'm an IT guy that manages a few translation<br>> projects. If you provide the reference materials required, I'll have no<br>> problem submitting the other proposals.<br><br>> Thaks in advance,<br>> João Miguel Neves<br><br><br> </div></body>
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