<font face="georgia,serif">Comments below.</font><div><font face="georgia,serif"><br clear="all"></font>Mark<br><br>— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 07:14, Peter Constable <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Since Montenegro decided to refer to their official language using a distinct name from that used by their neighbors, the question has come up on a few occasions as to whether “Montenegrin” should be coded in ISO 639
distinct from Serbian. This raises various questions in my mind regarding implications of such a change, and I’m curious to know if people on this list have comments.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In raising this, I’d ask people not to rat-hole on how different Serbian and Montenegrin are linguistically: there’s enough evidence that they can appropriate be considered a single language in terms of linguistic criteria,
and so that would have no bearing whatsoever in possible JAC action.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I take it that you are saying that further evidence of their unity is unnecessary for <i>this</i> decision, because it has been sufficiently established. (And not that linguistic criteria in general have no bearing on JAC actions.)</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Some questions that come to my mind:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US">Given the established practice of coding “Bosnian”, “Croatian” and “Serbian” distinctly, how problematic would it be for users and implementers if “Montenegrin” was handled differently,
simply being listed as one of the alternative names for sr / srp?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The separation of Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian in the base language code instead of using regions or variants to distinguish them already causes problems. Thus we have had to develop mechanisms to deal with that. Adding one more to the mix adds some incremental cost, but probably not huge.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The following comment is, however, extremely worrisome:</div><div><br></div><div>> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(0, 0, 255); ">B<span>ut, in the case that we should agree that Montenegrin and Serbian are linguistically equivalent, then we would also be obliged to recognize that Bosniac and Serbian are linguistically equivalent. And so, we would be obliged to conclude that Bosniac and Montenegrin MUST be treated on an equal footing. </span></span></div>
<div><br></div><div>There are a few unfortunate cases in ISO 639 that break the principle that separate codes are only supplied in cases of mutual incomprehensibility. Saying those few exceptions establish a precedent, and that we must to allow EVERY case of different dialects or orthographic variant to get separate base language codes would be a complete disaster. Separating "American" from "British" English, Brazilian from Portuguese, &c. in the base language code would cause innumerable implementation and compatibility problems.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If the JAC were to (to take leave of their senses and) go down that path, then I think our only real recourse in BCP 47 would be to decouple the base language from automatically being driven from ISO 639 codes, and only take in the codes that made sense.</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US">Will users really distinguish “Montenegrin” language from “Serbian” language when reading books, newspapers, etc.; when listening to radio, television, music, etc.; when buying dictionaries,
hiring translators, etc?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'll ask some knowledgeable people about that. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="EN-CA" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US">Will librarians and other cataloguers really distinguish content in “Montenegrin” vs. “Serbian”?</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US">How will content developers that deal with localization be impacted? E.g., as developers of software or large websites, video media publishers dealing with alternate-language audio tracks
or closed-caption content?</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><span>-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US">In what ways would “sr-ME” versus “sr-RS” be less than fully adequate for users’ needs?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Here are a couple of the implementation issues, off the top of my head.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Option 1: Montenegrin continues to be represented by sr-ME.</div><div>Option 2: Montenegrin is represented by xxx (and because of past practice, also by sr-ME).</div><div><br></div><div><div>Interoperability is harder for option 2, because in order to make processing work right, you have to accept both coding systems from external sources and deal with them consistently.</div>
</div><div><br></div><div>For translation of the language name, some systems go strictly by component. So, for example, sr-Latn-ME would be translated as: "Serbian (Latin, Montenegro)". For simple systems, it would be easier to have xxx.</div>
<div><br></div><div>However, CLDR and other libraries allow for the translation of multiple pieces of BCP47 codes. That is, the translation for sr-Latn-ME can be "Montenegrin (Latin)". [This facility of using context is necessary for other purposes; you also want "zh-Hant-SG" to be "Chinese (Simplified, Singapore)", using the term "Simplified" instead of "Simplified Chinese" or "Simplified Han".]</div>
<div><br></div><div>Lookup and fallback become harder with a separate code. For compatibility,you have to either normalize on input, or have an apparatus set up so that xxx-* gets treated as if it were sr-*-ME-* for purposes of lookup. For the latter, you also have to decide what the order is, eg</div>
<div><br></div><div>input:</div><div><br></div><div>xxx-Latn-XX-variant</div><div><br></div><div>try: // in some order, not sure what it really should be</div><div><br></div><div>xxx-Latn-XX-variant</div><div>xxx-Latn-XX</div>
<div><div>sr-Latn-ME-variant</div></div><div><div>sr-Latn-ME</div></div><div><div>xxx-Latn</div><div>xxx-XX</div><div>xxx-ME</div><div>sr-ME</div><div>sr-Latn</div><div>xxx</div><div>sr</div><div><br></div><div>There will inevitably be many implementations that don't realize the connection between xxx and sr-ME. For those, lookup will probably just fail; that is, requesting a website in xxx just gives, say, English, even if Serbian is available.</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Peter</span></p>
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