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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=443424706-19062009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I do not think that you can consider "autonyms" as
purely formal objects. On the contrary, they are social objects unifying and
identifying their "speech community" (a concept developped notably by David
Dalby) and giving proof of utilisation of the considered language and so
have a veritable social existence. And with the proof of social existence of a
unique autonym as a language name used by its "speech community", we do not
have to bother too much about what could be the definition of a
language name. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=443424706-19062009><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>In fact, what would mean a concept of language without
having a language name to identify the considered concept ?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=443424706-19062009></SPAN><SPAN
class=443424706-19062009></SPAN><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2>O<SPAN class=443424706-19062009>nly the transformation going from the
autonym, considered as the unique language name, to the choice of its
representation is a formal step of the procees, and further the choice of the
code element is a further formal step.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=443424706-19062009>Bien cordialement.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=443424706-19062009>Gérard LANG</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=fr dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>De :</B> Peter Constable
[mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] <BR><B>Envoyé :</B> vendredi 19 juin 2009
08:03<BR><B>À :</B> Lang Gérard;
ietf-languages@alvestrand.no<BR><B>Objet :</B> RE: Valencian Language Tag
registration request<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">By
this rationale, “Hatian” and “Patois” should be separate coded entities,
and one would never be able to know for content tagged as “Patois” if it was
making the same declaration as would “Haitian” or something entirely
different. The very same arguments you make in relation to languages – that
they are objects whose definition is clearly questionable – is equally
applicable to language names unless you treat them purely formally: as labels
with no consideration for what they signify. But once you do that, the coding
loses any usefulness. There is no real need to code labels apart from interest
in what those labels signify.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Peter<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Lang
Gérard<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:10 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Marion
Gunn; ietf-languages@alvestrand.no; vmbenet@gmail.com;
ietf-languages-request@alvestrand.no<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Valencian Language
Tag registration request<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Maybe
the principal question is what are the entries to be registered and coded
inside ISO 639.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">And,
for me, the answer is clearly given by the title of the ISO 639 series that is
"Code for the representation of NAMES of languages".</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">So
that the coded entries of ISO 639 should be NAMES of LANGUAGES (ideally the
language's autonym, that is the name given by the considered named language
inside this considered language; so that there should ideally be only one
language name for every entry of ISO 639, because this entry is exactly this
name that is being coded). So that ISO 639 should not be taken as coding
directly languages (objects whose definition is clearly questionable and does
not seem to be unanimously adopted), and should naturally choosee code
elements having direct links with the coded language name, as this has been
quasi-systematically the case in ISO 639 history..</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Gérard
LANG </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN lang=FR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN lang=FR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">De :</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=FR style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] <B>De la part de</B> Marion
Gunn<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> jeudi 18 juin 2009 14:02<BR><B>À :</B>
ietf-languages@alvestrand.no; vmbenet@gmail.com;
ietf-languages-request@alvestrand.no<BR><B>Objet :</B> Re: Valencian
Language Tag registration request</SPAN><SPAN lang=FR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB>That is a perfectly valid reason for
your request, Victor, which worked for Bosnian, although only after many
lives had been destroyed, which "justification" is not one to be wished on
any country, so please bear in mind that such decisions are sometimes based
on reasoned argument, sometimes on political bias and that being mocked in
public, as you were today, is part of the price you pay for just asking in
the current climate of intolerance of differences.<BR><BR>For the record, I
abhor the recent mocking reference to my country's consititution so as to
silence you (and ask the list owner to reject the use of this list to make
such entirely inappropriate remarks).<BR><BR>mg<BR><BR><BR>Scríobh Victor on
18 Jun 2009, at 08:07, Victor:<BR><BR></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P><PRE>The main reason to request the language tag is the identity the <o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>user's have about the language....<o:p></o:p></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB>-- <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Marion Gunn * eGteo
(Estab.1991)</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">27
Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Bhóthair, An Charraig
Dhubh,</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Co.
Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">*
<A href="mailto:mgunn@egt.ie">mgunn@egt.ie</A> * <A
href="mailto:eamonn@egt.ie">eamonn@egt.ie</A> *</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>