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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I don’t perceive a need for such a subtag. If someone who thinks
they have a need submits a request, let’s discuss it then. Let’s not try to fix
problems that don’t exist. I suspect a subtag for catalona isn’t going to
change anything for those that want a primary language subtag for Valencian.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] <b>On Behalf Of </b>CE Whitehead<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 17, 2009 8:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> ietf-languages@iana.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> vmbenet@gmail.com; doug@ewellic.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Valencian Language Tag registration request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<h1><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hi! My main question at this point is whether or not we need
a matching variant subtag for the variety of this language spoken in Catalona
(so as not to have it appear that Valencian is a sub-dialect of Catalan, but
instead to treat these as two equal dialects/variants, with none being the
default dialect/variant).</span><span style='font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></h1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <br>
<span style='color:black'>To me these are both dialects related to Occitan but
these have picked up some Spanish vocabulary, which distinguishes them from
Occitan (which has in its turned picked up some French vocabulary).</span><br>
<br>
Doug Ewell <a
href="mailto:ietf-languages@alvestrand.no?Subject=Valencian%20Language%20Tag%20registration%20request&In-Reply-To="
title="Valencian Language Tag registration request">doug at ewellic.org </a><br>
Wed Jun 17 04:04:56 CEST 2009 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>CE Whitehead <cewcathar at hotmail dot com> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> As was the case with Romanian/Moldovian, it seems that documents <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> translated into both Valencian and Catalan tend to be identical in <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> both languages, so linguistically there is very little difference <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> between the two languages.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>As was the case with Romanian/Moldovan, there is only one language, not <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>two.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> Nevertheless, I do feel that the requester has the right to petition <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> ISO 639 for a code for Valencian should the requestor wish to do so, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> though 'val' would not work, as Addison has pointed out.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> One might benefit from reading John Cowan's note from a day ago:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> 3) In August of 2007, ISO 639-3/RA rejected the request for a separate <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>>> code unit for Valencian, so "talk to ISO first" is unnecessary.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Ah, I was busy & skimmed his note but somehow glossed completely over that (which was hidden down as item 3).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> It would be pointless to go back to the RA less than two years later <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> with the same request and the same supporting information. "Insanity: <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> results." - Einstein<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Agreed, although the Universe is strange and somewhat random sometimes.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>>> However, although having the code 'ca' stand for both languages may be <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>>> a little problematic from a political standpoint,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>> The political standpoint does not matter. ISO 639 and the IETF Language <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Subtag Registry exist for the purpose of tagging and identifying content <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> in human languages. They do not exist for the purpose of settling <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> political disputes or validating people's nationalistic identity.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Well we do not offend people's political sensibilities with the assigned codes, or try not to,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>but there really are only so many two- and three-letter codes, and in my opinion, you probably have to take what you get; the variant subtags can be a bit more descriptive (though there are fights over these too).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>(And I do definitely question any theory that Valencian descended from Mozarabic while Catalan did not, because during my own quite brief work with Mozarabic I turned up much verse in Gallego that was clearly uttered in sort of a tenson with the Mozarabic kharjas or 'refrains' that authors of poems in Iberia included at the end [perhaps these 'refrains' came from popular Mozarabic songs that the writers of the poems had heard].<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>So to me Gallego was certainly influenced by Mozarabic and Spanish at least in part descended from it; so I can't see a unique descent for Valencian from Mozarabic-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>though I may be quite wrong, and I suppose this is not the place to discuss this anyway; in any case today a text translated into Valencian is not different from the same text translated into Catalan and that's enough for me) <o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> . . .<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Under BCP 47, the language-variant combination "ca-valencia" is <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> available to distinguish "Valencian" from "Catalan." Whether the <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> difference is one of dialect, orthography, vocabulary, or what have you, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> this is more than sufficient and no other solution is needed<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Which brings up the issue foremost on my mind. Should we, at this point, apply for a second variant subtag, for the Catalan variety of Catalan-Valencian,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to keep things perfectly perfectly balanced? (And so as not to seem to favor one variant or the other?)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> --<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Gerard Meijssen <a
href="mailto:ietf-languages@alvestrand.no?Subject=Valencian%20Language%20Tag%20registration%20request&In-Reply-To=C65E7E36.DE5F%25kent.karlsson14@comhem.se"
title="Valencian Language Tag registration request">gerard.meijssen at openprogress.org </a><br>
Wed Jun 17 12:37:27 CEST 2009 <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Hoi,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> There is a difference between the literature of the Dutch and the Belgians.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Given the prominence of libraries in the history of the ISO-639 I expect<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> that this is an explanation for this.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>> Gerard<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Interesting. What other literatures will we ultimately have to distinguish?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Best,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>C. E. Whitehead<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a
href="mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre></div>
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