<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>Hi everyone. It's 23:40. I was on a very nice train from 14:00 to 19:30 from London to Penzance today. Went to a pub with wifi and uploaded what I'd written on the train to you. Went for a curry. Came back to find 35 new messages!</div><div><br></div><div>On 17 Sep 2008, at 23:12, Peter Constable wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div>Mark's point is that he wants a subtag specifically for Hanyu Pinyin -- that is, something specific to Mandarin.</div></blockquote><div><br></div>Subset of what I have proposed. Meets his needs. Covers other things as well.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Your point is that the subtag "pinyin" has a mnemonic value that can be related to languages other than Mandarin. That's a different and independent point.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, it's not. My point is that "pinyin" is analogous to "fonupa" in that it is a set of coherent orthographic conventions which is applicable to a number of languages in China. These pinyin orthographies part of a family in the same way that pre-IPA Uralicist transcriptions are. Appropriate use of prefixes can allow us to describe these correctly, including Mark's immediate needs.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>There are two issues that have been on the table:<br><br>1. Should the semantic scope of the subtag be specific to an orthography for Mandarin only, or should it encompass other (however-related) orthographies?</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm quite sure that it should be, because this is a family of related orthographies, one of which (the Hanyu one) is particularly well-known.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>2. Should the form of the subtag be "pinyin" or something else?</div></blockquote><div><br></div>Do let's have it be "pinyin" and let the registration define it appropriately.<br><blockquote type="cite"><div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"></blockquote><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; ">I get the argument regarding the mnemonic value of "pinyin", but I'm not convinced it's the last word. A subtag "af" may hold certain mnemonic value for people interested in Afar, but that doesn't mean that it would be correct for people to use "af" for Afar content, AND it also doesn't mean that we should have the semantic scope of "af" be broad enough to encompass both Afar and Afrikaans. At some point, we do expect users of the registry to read the documentation in the registry and apply it appropriately.</span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't find this analogy to be applicable.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote type="cite">You may need zh-cmn-Latn-pinyin, but the final subtag there <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; ">can be correctly applied to bo-Latn-pinyin and zh-Latn-TW-pinyin.</span></blockquote><br>Only if we define it that way. We can choose to register "pinyin" to mean something more specific, as Mark requested.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm trying to do the right thing here, which is to give Mark a tag and be able to meet other pretty reasonable requirements as well. </div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote type="cite">I do not agree to restrict the "pinyin" subtag to Hanyu Pinyin <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; ">on linguistic grounds. The three languages mentioned above use Pinyin conventions in certain romanizations...</span></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I am happy to agree to add the "pinyin" subtag so long as it <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; ">can be used for Tibetan and Tongyong...</span></blockquote><br>Perhaps you should be preparing an alternate request form in which you point to documentation defining Pinyin conventions that cover all three languages.<br></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>That's probably a good idea, but I am not likely to be able to do so before I get back home to Westport Monday. I think links to the relevant documentation has been posted somewhere to this list in the last while. Please see my thread "Pinyin" about the prefixes and -Latn-.</div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Everson Mono'; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Everson Mono'; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: '-webkit-monospace'; ">Michael Everson * <a href="http://www.evertype.com/">http://www.evertype.com</a></span></div></div></span></div></span> </div><br></body></html>