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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I concede that he is not our rubber stamp; but IMO he had better
have pretty compelling reasons to stand as a lone objector. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Some years back, he stood alone against several people on a
request that he finally approved (when re-introduced for the nth time over an
extended span of time) after finally consulting someone off this list who said
the same thing as people on this list but whom he happened to trust more than
people on this list. That cost the original requester perhaps two years or more
of inconvenience. I remain fearful of that kind of thing being repeated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Mark Crispin
[mailto:markrcrispin@live.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 03, 2008 12:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Constable; Mark Davis; Tracey, Niall<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ietf-languages@iana.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM (R3): pinyin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Some of the most wretchedly bad technical
decisions were made as the result of a majority. Unlike political or
social policy, technical decisions are best NOT made by democracies; that way
ensures mediocrity at best and at worst...well the less said the better.
Even political or social policies should not be decided by majority choice
alone; the worst tyrannies exist when a minority has no ability to exercise a
veto.<br>
<br>
For better or worse, the decision is Michael's; he is not our rubber
stamp. We are here to advise him. As far as I can tell, he puts
great weight upon the consensus of the rest of us, and is not arbitrary in the
few cases when he chooses to do something other than what the consensus
recommends.<br>
<br>
-- Mark --<br>
<br>
http://panda.com/mrc<br>
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.<br>
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From: petercon@microsoft.com<br>
To: mark@macchiato.com; niall.tracey@logica.com<br>
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:50:12 -0700<br>
Subject: RE: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM (R3): pinyin<br>
CC: ietf-languages@iana.org<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mark, Michael shouldn’t be making unilateral decisions; his is
only one opinion. If the majority opinion is that “zh-Latn” is better, then
that’s what he should approve.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
[mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 03, 2008 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tracey, Niall<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peter Constable; ietf-languages@iana.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM (R3): pinyin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>As I said, I have no objection at all to
making the prefix be zh-Latn instead of just zh; I would prefer it. It is
Michael Everson who wanted "zh" instead, so perhaps you should
address him on this topic.<br>
<br>
(For my part, I think it is more important to have the subtag registered -- and
not have this drag out forever -- than for the subtag's Prefix to be perfect;
in practice people will use Latn as a prefix anyway.)<br>
<br clear=all>
Mark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>On
Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Tracey, Niall <<a
href="mailto:niall.tracey@logica.com">niall.tracey@logica.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>We all know that new tags don't gain sudden acceptance overnight.
It would be one thing if there was a suppress-script for subtags -- in that
case systems could update themselves automatically. As it is, that script
information is in the free-text fields and requires human intervention to
insert into systems, so it's going to be a while coming. In legacy systems, it
may never happen.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>If we issue advice saying that the text should be tagged zh-Latn-wadegile,
it will be rendered correctly by all properly-written software systems.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>If we tell people that zh-wadegile is enough, more of
them will tag text as such and systems will attempt to render it in Hanji.</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Izh-Latn-wadegile is surely the only fault-tolerant
(userproof?) option.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Shouldn't we build fault-tolerance in at every level?</span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Níall.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 September 2008 16:35<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Constable<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org">ietf-languages@iana.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM (R3): pinyin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>While I share that opinion, there were
others that objected to it. And I can live with the required prefix being only
zh; I think that reasonable implementations will also include Latn anyway.<br>
<br clear=all>
Mark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>On
Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Peter Constable <<a
href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:
<a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>]
On Behalf Of Doug Ewell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>
> Here are the proposed new records and registration forms, for a two-week<br>
> review period. (Sorry, guys: RFC 4646, Section 3.7.) Eligible
to be<br>
> added Wednesday, September 9 at 3:00 UTC, unless someone objects or<br>
> finds a problem.<br>
><br>
> ===<br>
><br>
> LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>...<br>
<br>
> Prefix: zh<br>
<br>
IMO this should be "zh-Latn".<br>
<br>
More generally, it has always been my opinion that variant subtags denoting a
particular written form should always be prefixed by a script subtag except
when Suppress-Script applies.<br>
<span style='color:#888888'><br>
<br>
<br>
Peter</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>
Ietf-languages mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no">Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no</a><br>
<a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages"
target="_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br
clear=all>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>This
e-mail and any attachment is for authorised use by the intended recipient(s)
only. It may contain proprietary material, confidential information and/or be
subject to legal privilege. It should not be copied, disclosed to, retained or
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>See
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