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Some of the most wretchedly bad technical decisions were made as the result of a majority. Unlike political or social policy, technical decisions are best NOT made by democracies; that way ensures mediocrity at best and at worst...well the less said the better. Even political or social policies should not be decided by majority choice alone; the worst tyrannies exist when a minority has no ability to exercise a veto.<br><br>For better or worse, the decision is Michael's; he is not our rubber stamp. We are here to advise him. As far as I can tell, he puts great weight upon the consensus of the rest of us, and is not arbitrary in the few cases when he chooses to do something other than what the consensus recommends.<br><br>-- Mark --<br><br>http://panda.com/mrc<br>Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.<br>Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.<br><br><br><br><hr>From: petercon@microsoft.com<br>To: mark@macchiato.com; niall.tracey@logica.com<br>Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:50:12 -0700<br>Subject: RE: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM (R3): pinyin<br>CC: ietf-languages@iana.org<br><br>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Mark, Michael shouldn’t be making unilateral decisions; his is
only one opinion. If the majority opinion is that “zh-Latn” is better, then
that’s what he should approve.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Peter</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">
mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 03, 2008 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tracey, Niall<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Peter Constable; ietf-languages@iana.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM (R3): pinyin</span></p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">As I said, I have no objection
at all to making the prefix be zh-Latn instead of just zh; I would prefer it.
It is Michael Everson who wanted "zh" instead, so perhaps you should
address him on this topic.<br>
<br>
(For my part, I think it is more important to have the subtag registered -- and
not have this drag out forever -- than for the subtag's Prefix to be perfect;
in practice people will use Latn as a prefix anyway.)<br>
<br clear="all">
Mark<br>
<br>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Tracey, Niall <<a href="mailto:niall.tracey@logica.com">niall.tracey@logica.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: blue;">We all know that new tags don't gain sudden acceptance overnight.
It would be one thing if there was a suppress-script for subtags -- in that
case systems could update themselves automatically. As it is, that script
information is in the free-text fields and requires human intervention to
insert into systems, so it's going to be a while coming. In legacy systems, it
may never happen.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: blue;">If we issue advice saying that the text should be tagged
zh-Latn-wadegile, it will be rendered correctly by all properly-written
software systems.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: blue;">If we tell people that zh-wadegile is enough, more of
them will tag text as such and systems will attempt to render it in Hanji.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: blue;">Izh-Latn-wadegile is surely the only fault-tolerant
(userproof?) option.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: blue;">Shouldn't we build fault-tolerance in at every level?</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: blue;">Níall.</span></p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> <a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 03 September 2008 16:35<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Constable<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org">ietf-languages@iana.org</a></span></p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION FORM (R3): pinyin</span></p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">While I share that opinion,
there were others that objected to it. And I can live with the required prefix
being only zh; I think that reasonable implementations will also include Latn
anyway.<br>
<br clear="all">
Mark<br>
<br>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Peter Constable <<a href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal">From: <a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no">ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>]
On Behalf Of Doug Ewell</p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><br>
> Here are the proposed new records and registration forms, for a two-week<br>
> review period. (Sorry, guys: RFC 4646, Section 3.7.) Eligible
to be<br>
> added Wednesday, September 9 at 3:00 UTC, unless someone objects or<br>
> finds a problem.<br>
><br>
> ===<br>
><br>
> LANGUAGE SUBTAG MODIFICATION</p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal">...<br>
<br>
> Prefix: zh<br>
<br>
IMO this should be "zh-Latn".<br>
<br>
More generally, it has always been my opinion that variant subtags denoting a
particular written form should always be prefixed by a script subtag except
when Suppress-Script applies.<br>
<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
<br>
<br>
Peter</span></p>
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