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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It seems to me that changing from “no linguistic content” to “not
applicable” isn’t a huge degree of broadening, and broadening is not
prohibited. So, if you wanted to push for broadening, that might be possible.
But I think there should be some consensus here before taking it to the JAC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter
Constable<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 17, 2008 3:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ietf-languages@iana.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: ID for language-invariant strings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Karen: I suggested “no linguistic content” on the understanding
that the audio and subtitle streams were all tagged separately, and that it
would be an audio stream about which was declared “no linguistic content”, not
the film as a whole.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 17, 2008 2:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Constable<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ietf-languages@iana.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: ID for language-invariant strings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
"zxx" tag started with my query into how I should classify the
"audio content" of a silent film in a system designed to serve
non-silent films where a language code is required. Peter suggested "zxx =
no linguistic content" and registered it. </span><br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I felt that it
might be better to use the industry terminology "silent" and employ a
free tag in the "Q" space of ISO 639-2. While there was "no
linguistic content" on that audio channel, there was certainly a plot that
could be determined from watching the film even if the title cards were removed
(a "title card" is an interstitial used to display the text in a
silent film). To describe our wonderful heritage of silent films as having no
linguistic content just seemed a bit cruel. I was willing to go with "not
applicable" but could not recommend the use of "zxx = no linguistic
content" for this purpose.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>When it was
later suggested that "zxx" should be used to mark up code fragments
appearing in a tutorial written in English, I was even more opposed to the
"non-linguistic" semantic. I wasn't the only one who complained that
code -- especially in the context of a technical tutorial -- is primarily meant
to be read by humans, not machines. An assistive device such as a Braille
screenreader would want to represent that text as language, not skip over
it because it's non-linguistic in nature. Binary junk data is the only thing I
can think of that is truly non-linguistic.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Any chance we
could broaden the semantic of the "zxx" tag? I still think we did the
wrong thing here and the "non-applicable" tag is more appropriate for
all the use cases mentioned.</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007AprJun/0187.html --
one previous post on the topic</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Side note: I
find the IETF archives very hard to search or I could have produced a better
example. Am I missing a search interface somewhere? (Reply offlist.)</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,</span>
<br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Karen Broome</span>
<br>
<br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Peter Constable
<petercon@microsoft.com> wrote on 03/14/2008 01:37:30 PM:</span></tt><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<br>
<tt>> If “zxx” were “not applicable”, I would not have any reservation </tt><br>
<tt>> about semantic overloading for the application scenarios I have in </tt><br>
<tt>> mind now. Funny, I really have no recollection of you suggesting </tt><br>
<tt>> that at that time. (Sorry.)</tt></span> <br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> </span></tt> <br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> </span></tt> <br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Peter</span></tt> <br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> </span></tt> <br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> From: Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
[mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] </span></tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt>> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 12:51 PM</tt><br>
<tt>> To: Peter Constable</tt><br>
<tt>> Cc: ietf-languages@iana.org</tt><br>
<tt>> Subject: RE: ID for language-invariant strings</tt></span> <br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> </span></tt> <br>
<tt><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>> </span></tt><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt>> I can keep restating the point I've made from the beginning. The </tt><br>
<tt>> semantic for "zxx" should have been defined as "not
applicable" </tt><br>
<tt>> which was the use case presented at the time it was created. Since </tt><br>
<tt>> it was not expressed in this way, now we need another tag, I think. </tt><br>
<tt>> </tt><br>
<tt>> Regards, </tt><br>
<tt>> </tt><br>
<tt>> Karen Broome</tt><br>
<tt>> Metadata Systems Designer</tt><br>
<tt>> Sony Pictures Entertainment</tt><br>
<tt>> 310.244.4384 </tt><br>
<tt>> </tt><br>
<tt>> ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no wrote on 03/14/2008 08:49:31 AM:</tt><br>
<tt>> </tt><br>
<tt>> > > From: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no
[mailto:ietf-languages-</tt><br>
<tt>> > > bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell</tt><br>
<tt>> > > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:16 PM</tt><br>
<tt>> > > To: ietf-languages@iana.org</tt><br>
<tt>> > > Subject: Re: ID for language-invariant strings</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > > ["zxx" is] a "less bad" fit than the
other choices:</tt><br>
<tt>> > ></tt><br>
<tt>> > > zxx - content is not linguistic in nature</tt><br>
<tt>> > > und - content is in an undetermined language</tt><br>
<tt>> > > mis - content is in an otherwise uncoded language</tt><br>
<tt>> > > i-default - content is in a default, fallback language
intelligible to</tt><br>
<tt>> > > anglophones</tt><br>
<tt>> > ></tt><br>
<tt>> > > I agree that inventing a new code element/subtag for this
situation</tt><br>
<tt>> > > would be undesirable.</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > If it's less bad, I still think it kind of bad.</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > For instance, suppose I need to apply language tags to each of the
</tt><br>
<tt>> > data elements in the main ISO 639-3 code table. For data in
columns </tt><br>
<tt>> > like the 639-3 ID, clearly "zxx" applies: the alpha-3
identifiers </tt><br>
<tt>> > have no linguistic content. But what about the reference names? </tt><br>
<tt>> > "zxx" would be a decidedly bad choice for that column,
IMO, since </tt><br>
<tt>> > every single data element is definitely linguistic in nature.</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > I don't know why people are so adverse to new special-purpose
code </tt><br>
<tt>> > elements when there is a reasonable need. It's not like there are
a </tt><br>
<tt>> > lot of different special-case semantics that are needed in
language-</tt><br>
<tt>> > tagging application scenarios; I think the set is very small, </tt><br>
<tt>> > perhaps even that this is the only important gap. I am *far* more
</tt><br>
<tt>> > concerned about overloading tags with distinct, orthogonal
semantics</tt><br>
<tt>> > for particular application scenarios ("und" means X in
this </tt><br>
<tt>> > application but Y in that application): *that* can lead to
serious trouble.</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > As I think about this, I'm inclined to propose a new
special-purpose</tt><br>
<tt>> > ID "zrf" in ISO 639:</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > ID: zxn</tt><br>
<tt>> > Reference name: language-neutral content</tt><br>
<tt>> > Comment: This ID is provided primarily for application scenarios</tt><br>
<tt>> > in which a language identifier
must be declared for</tt><br>
<tt>> > content that may be linguistic
in nature but that is</tt><br>
<tt>> > used as a language-neutral
identifier to reference or</tt><br>
<tt>> > index other information
objects.</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > Uses of this code element do
not make any declaration</tt><br>
<tt>> > regarding the actual language
of a given data element</tt><br>
<tt>> > or of whether a given data
element is, in fact,</tt><br>
<tt>> > linguistic in nature.</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > Note: for applications
scenarios in which an identifier</tt><br>
<tt>> > string is unambiguously
non-linguistic in nature, "zxx"</tt><br>
<tt>> > should be used rather than
"zxn".</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > For example, in a database of
coding elements for</tt><br>
<tt>> > cultural objects that includes
for each such object a</tt><br>
<tt>> > code element such as an alpha-3
string (e.g., "abc")</tt><br>
<tt>> > and a reference name (e.g.,
"PIANO", "GUQIN"), the</tt><br>
<tt>> > language identifier applied to
the code element</tt><br>
<tt>> > should be "zxx",but
"zxn" may be applied to the</tt><br>
<tt>> > reference names.</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > Applications may also use
"zxn" for content that is</tt><br>
<tt>> > Linguistic in nature but that
is represented in a</tt><br>
<tt>> > Language-neutral form. For
example, the concept 'ten'</tt><br>
<tt>> > Is linguistic in nature but can
be expressed in the</tt><br>
<tt>> > Language-neutral form
"10". Such use of "zxn" should</tt><br>
<tt>> > be considered only for
application scenarios that</tt><br>
<tt>> > have a particular need; this
usage is not recommended</tt><br>
<tt>> > in general. For instance, if a
software application</tt><br>
<tt>> > needs to segment the strings in
a document into items</tt><br>
<tt>> > that get passed to various
language-specific processes</tt><br>
<tt>> > and it must apply a language
identifier to language-</tt><br>
<tt>> > neutral content such as numbers
represented as digits,</tt><br>
<tt>> > then "zxn" may be
used within that application; but it</tt><br>
<tt>> > is not expected that content
authors would apply "zxn"</tt><br>
<tt>> > to numbers in their documents
in general.</tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > </tt><br>
<tt>> > Peter</tt><br>
<tt>> > _______________________________________________</tt><br>
<tt>> > Ietf-languages mailing list</tt><br>
<tt>> > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no</tt><br>
<tt>> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</tt></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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