<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I'm happy to submit the change request
unless Peter wants to handle it (as the tag originator). </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Karen Broome</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Mark Davis"
<mark.davis@icu-project.org></b> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/17/2008 05:37 PM</font>
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<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"ietf-languages@iana.org"
<ietf-languages@iana.org>, "Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com"
<Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: ID for language-invariant strings</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>I think that would be a reasonable change.<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Peter Constable <</font><a href=mailto:petercon@microsoft.com><font size=3 color=blue><u>petercon@microsoft.com</u></font></a><font size=3>>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#1f497d>It seems to me that changing from "no
linguistic content" to "not applicable" isn't a huge degree
of broadening, and broadening is not prohibited. So, if you wanted to push
for broadening, that might be possible. But I think there should be some
consensus here before taking it to the JAC.</font>
<p><font size=2 color=#1f497d> </font>
<p><font size=2 color=#1f497d>Peter</font>
<p><font size=2 color=#1f497d> </font>
<p><font size=2><b>From:</b> </font><a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</u></font></a><font size=2>
[mailto:</font><a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</u></font></a><font size=2>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter Constable<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, March 17, 2008 3:26 PM<b><br>
To:</b> </font><a href=mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue><u>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</u></font></a>
<p><font size=2><b><br>
Cc:</b> </font><a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages@iana.org</u></font></a><font size=2><b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: ID for language-invariant strings</font>
<p><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2 color=#1f497d>Karen: I suggested "no linguistic content"
on the understanding that the audio and subtitle streams were all tagged
separately, and that it would be an audio stream about which was declared
"no linguistic content", not the film as a whole.</font>
<p><font size=2 color=#1f497d> </font>
<p><font size=2 color=#1f497d> </font>
<p><font size=2 color=#1f497d>Peter</font>
<p><font size=2 color=#1f497d> </font>
<p><font size=2><b>From:</b> </font><a href=mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue><u>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</u></font></a><font size=2>
[mailto:</font><a href=mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue><u>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</u></font></a><font size=2>]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, March 17, 2008 2:25 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Peter Constable<b><br>
Cc:</b> </font><a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages@iana.org</u></font></a><font size=2><b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: ID for language-invariant strings</font>
<p><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2><br>
The "zxx" tag started with my query into how I should classify
the "audio content" of a silent film in a system designed to
serve non-silent films where a language code is required. Peter suggested
"zxx = no linguistic content" and registered it. </font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=2><br>
I felt that it might be better to use the industry terminology "silent"
and employ a free tag in the "Q" space of ISO 639-2. While there
was "no linguistic content" on that audio channel, there was
certainly a plot that could be determined from watching the film even if
the title cards were removed (a "title card" is an interstitial
used to display the text in a silent film). To describe our wonderful heritage
of silent films as having no linguistic content just seemed a bit cruel.
I was willing to go with "not applicable" but could not recommend
the use of "zxx = no linguistic content" for this purpose.</font><font size=3>
<br>
</font><font size=2><br>
When it was later suggested that "zxx" should be used to mark
up code fragments appearing in a tutorial written in English, I was even
more opposed to the "non-linguistic" semantic. I wasn't the only
one who complained that code -- especially in the context of a technical
tutorial -- is primarily meant to be read by humans, not machines. An assistive
device such as a Braille screenreader would want to represent that
text as language, not skip over it because it's non-linguistic in nature.
Binary junk data is the only thing I can think of that is truly non-linguistic.</font><font size=3>
<br>
</font><font size=2><br>
Any chance we could broaden the semantic of the "zxx" tag? I
still think we did the wrong thing here and the "non-applicable"
tag is more appropriate for all the use cases mentioned.</font><font size=3>
<br>
</font><font size=2><br>
</font><a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007AprJun/0187.html" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue><u>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007AprJun/0187.html</u></font></a><font size=2>
-- one previous post on the topic</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2><br>
Side note: I find the IETF archives very hard to search or I could have
produced a better example. Am I missing a search interface somewhere? (Reply
offlist.)</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2><br>
Regards,</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2><br>
Karen Broome</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><tt><font size=2><br>
Peter Constable <</font></tt><a href=mailto:petercon@microsoft.com target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>petercon@microsoft.com</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2>>
wrote on 03/14/2008 01:37:30 PM:</font></tt><font size=2><br>
</font><tt><font size=2><br>
> If "zxx" were "not applicable", I would not have
any reservation <br>
> about semantic overloading for the application scenarios I have in
<br>
> mind now. Funny, I really have no recollection of you suggesting <br>
> that at that time. (Sorry.)</font></tt><font size=3> </font><tt><font size=2><br>
> </font></tt><font size=3> </font><tt><font size=2><br>
> </font></tt><font size=3> </font><tt><font size=2><br>
> Peter</font></tt><font size=3> </font><tt><font size=2><br>
> </font></tt><font size=3> </font><tt><font size=2><br>
> From: </font></tt><a href=mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2>
[mailto:</font></tt><a href=mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2>]
<br>
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 12:51 PM<br>
> To: Peter Constable<br>
> Cc: </font></tt><a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages@iana.org</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
> Subject: RE: ID for language-invariant strings</font></tt><font size=3>
</font><tt><font size=2><br>
> </font></tt><font size=3> </font><tt><font size=2><br>
> <br>
> I can keep restating the point I've made from the beginning. The <br>
> semantic for "zxx" should have been defined as "not
applicable" <br>
> which was the use case presented at the time it was created. Since
<br>
> it was not expressed in this way, now we need another tag, I think.
<br>
> <br>
> Regards, <br>
> <br>
> Karen Broome<br>
> Metadata Systems Designer<br>
> Sony Pictures Entertainment<br>
> 310.244.4384 <br>
> <br>
> </font></tt><a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2>
wrote on 03/14/2008 08:49:31 AM:<br>
> <br>
> > > From: </font></tt><a href="mailto:ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no" target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2>
[mailto:</font></tt><a href="mailto:ietf-languages-" target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages-</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
> > > </font></tt><a href=mailto:bounces@alvestrand.no target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>bounces@alvestrand.no</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2>]
On Behalf Of Doug Ewell<br>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:16 PM<br>
> > > To: </font></tt><a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org" target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>ietf-languages@iana.org</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
> > > Subject: Re: ID for language-invariant strings<br>
> > <br>
> > > ["zxx" is] a "less bad" fit than the
other choices:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > zxx - content is not linguistic in nature<br>
> > > und - content is in an undetermined language<br>
> > > mis - content is in an otherwise uncoded language<br>
> > > i-default - content is in a default, fallback language intelligible
to<br>
> > > anglophones<br>
> > ><br>
> > > I agree that inventing a new code element/subtag for this
situation<br>
> > > would be undesirable.<br>
> > <br>
> > If it's less bad, I still think it kind of bad.<br>
> > <br>
> > For instance, suppose I need to apply language tags to each of
the <br>
> > data elements in the main ISO 639-3 code table. For data in columns
<br>
> > like the 639-3 ID, clearly "zxx" applies: the alpha-3
identifiers <br>
> > have no linguistic content. But what about the reference names?
<br>
> > "zxx" would be a decidedly bad choice for that column,
IMO, since <br>
> > every single data element is definitely linguistic in nature.<br>
> > <br>
> > I don't know why people are so adverse to new special-purpose
code <br>
> > elements when there is a reasonable need. It's not like there
are a <br>
> > lot of different special-case semantics that are needed in language-<br>
> > tagging application scenarios; I think the set is very small,
<br>
> > perhaps even that this is the only important gap. I am *far*
more <br>
> > concerned about overloading tags with distinct, orthogonal semantics<br>
> > for particular application scenarios ("und" means X
in this <br>
> > application but Y in that application): *that* can lead to serious
trouble.<br>
> > <br>
> > As I think about this, I'm inclined to propose a new special-purpose<br>
> > ID "zrf" in ISO 639:<br>
> > <br>
> > ID: zxn<br>
> > Reference name: language-neutral content<br>
> > Comment: This ID is provided primarily for application scenarios<br>
> > in which a language identifier
must be declared for<br>
> > content that may be linguistic
in nature but that is<br>
> > used as a language-neutral
identifier to reference or<br>
> > index other information objects.<br>
> > <br>
> > Uses of this code element do
not make any declaration<br>
> > regarding the actual language
of a given data element<br>
> > or of whether a given data
element is, in fact,<br>
> > linguistic in nature.<br>
> > <br>
> > Note: for applications scenarios
in which an identifier<br>
> > string is unambiguously non-linguistic
in nature, "zxx"<br>
> > should be used rather than
"zxn".<br>
> > <br>
> > For example, in a database
of coding elements for<br>
> > cultural objects that includes
for each such object a<br>
> > code element such as an alpha-3
string (e.g., "abc")<br>
> > and a reference name (e.g.,
"PIANO", "GUQIN"), the<br>
> > language identifier applied
to the code element<br>
> > should be "zxx",but
"zxn" may be applied to the<br>
> > reference names.<br>
> > <br>
> > Applications may also use "zxn"
for content that is<br>
> > Linguistic in nature but that
is represented in a<br>
> > Language-neutral form. For
example, the concept 'ten'<br>
> > Is linguistic in nature but
can be expressed in the<br>
> > Language-neutral form "10".
Such use of "zxn" should<br>
> > be considered only for application
scenarios that<br>
> > have a particular need; this
usage is not recommended<br>
> > in general. For instance, if
a software application<br>
> > needs to segment the strings
in a document into items<br>
> > that get passed to various
language-specific processes<br>
> > and it must apply a language
identifier to language-<br>
> > neutral content such as numbers
represented as digits,<br>
> > then "zxn" may be
used within that application; but it<br>
> > is not expected that content
authors would apply "zxn"<br>
> > to numbers in their documents
in general.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Peter<br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Ietf-languages mailing list<br>
> > </font></tt><a href="mailto:Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no" target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no</u></font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
> > </font></tt><a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages" target=_blank><tt><font size=2 color=blue><u>http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</u></font></tt></a><font size=3>
</font>
<br><font size=3><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</u></font><a href="mailto:Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no"><font size=3 color=blue><u>Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no</u></font></a><font size=3 color=blue><u><br>
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</font>
<br><font size=3><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mark </font>
<br>