<br><font size=2 face="Courier">Thank you all for taking the time to reply.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">One thing to note: The en-GB category would
not be "wrong" for this film in any case as Scotland is in the
UK. Point taken, but from a business perspective the granularity would
not be helpful. We simply don't have all that many Scottish films in our
archive.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">I think en-GB is fine for the watered-down
accent version. This is a classification based on business needs and anything
intelligible from the UK has historically been tagged en-GB -- I know this
isn't particularly precise, but it is widely understood. This film, however,
was not particularly intelligible to English speakers in its original form
and we need to note this distinction.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">The film was shot in several different
areas in Scotland -- I'm guessing there's a mix of dialects in the film.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">I don't think I want this tag any more
specific than Scottish Standard English realizing that these dialects are
a continuum much like the variety of dialects found in the USA. I have
changed my request to "en-scotland" based on feedback from this
list and in hopes that there is some day a region tag that can be substituted
for this text as other types of archives may want more granular regional
dialects. I would certainly ask for additional dialect tags if I had a
need for them.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">Thanks again,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">Karen Broome</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">Sony Pictures Entertainment</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=2 face="Courier"><b>Caoimhin O Donnaile <caoimhin@smo.uhi.ac.uk></b>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</font>
<p><font size=2 face="Courier">08/23/2007 06:52 PM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=2 face="Courier">To</font></div>
<td><font size=2 face="Courier">ietf-languages@iana.org, Chris.Robinson@ed.ac.uk,
lorna.pike@uhi.ac.uk, j.d.mcclure@abdn.ac.uk</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=2 face="Courier">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=2 face="Courier">maggie.scott@scotsdictionaries.org.uk</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=2 face="Courier">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=2 face="Courier">Re: Scottish English (was: LANGUAGE SUBTAG
REGISTRATION FORM</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier">I have been getting a bit out of my depth
on some of the questions which<br>
have arisen following Karen's request - I have just been speaking from<br>
my own experience as someone who lives in Scotland and who is interested<br>
in languages, rather than from any particular expertese in Scottish<br>
dialects. So I e-mailed a couple of people who are much more expert<br>
than myself, namely:<br>
- Derrick McClure of Aberdeen University<br>
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/langling/mcclure.htm<br>
- Lorna Pike, a lexicographer who has worked on Scottish dictionaries<br>
http://www.faclair.ac.uk/english/project_team.html<br>
<br>
Lorna in turn forwarded my questions to a colleague at Scottish National<br>
Dictionaries:<br>
- Chris Robinson of Edinburgh University:<br>
http://www.englang.ed.ac.uk/people/chris.html<br>
who sent me a very full reply. Derrick McClure, too, sent me a very<br>
full and independent reply. Included below are copies of their replies<br>
(together with the questions I put to them), and here is a brief summary<br>
of what they had to say:<br>
<br>
- All three of them felt strongly that Scottish English should<br>
certainly be registered as a variant of en.<br>
<br>
- All three of them preferred the tag en-scotland to en-scottish<br>
(so I withdraw the slight preference I previously expressed for<br>
en-scottish).<br>
<br>
- I see that I have been getting muddled myself between the<br>
terms "Scottish Standard English" and "Standard
Scottish English".<br>
Chris Robinson pointed out that "Scottish Standard English"
is<br>
the normal name for Scottish English - to such an extent that the<br>
abreviation "SSE" is in common use. "Scottish
Standard English"<br>
is also the term which Lorna Pike used in her reply.<br>
Derrick McClure preferred the term "Scottish English",
pointing<br>
out that there is no such thing as "Standard English".
I guess that<br>
the word "Standard" in "Scottish Standard English"
was inserted<br>
mainly a practical expedient, to help prevent the term being misapplied<br>
to Scots. I suppose it is up to us to choose whether to name<br>
en-scotland (if that is what we go for) as the more logical<br>
"Scottish English" or the more commonly used "Scottish
Standard English",<br>
and that the other name can be included as a comment.<br>
<br>
- Both Derrick and Chris pointed out that even the *dubbed* version of<br>
the film Gregory's Girl will be Scottish English (SSE), and that
to<br>
distinguish the original it should be given a different tag.<br>
<br>
- Chris said that the most appropriate tag for Glasgow dialect would be<br>
sco-glasgow, not en-glasgow. Derrick appeared to accept my
suggestion<br>
of en-glasgow, but maybe that was because he did not realise that<br>
sco-glasgow might be a possibility. Obviously this is a point
which<br>
needs sorting out. As a layman, I'd have said that Glasgow
dialect<br>
lies somewhere intermediate between English and Scots. I
previously<br>
expressed an inclination towards "en" rather than "sco",
but this is<br>
something which needs to be settled by the experts.<br>
<br>
Caoimhín (Kevin)<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:36:03 +0100 (BST)<br>
From: Caoimhin O Donnaile <caoimhin@smo.uhi.ac.uk><br>
To: j.d.mcclure@abdn.ac.uk, Lorna Pike <sm00lp@uhi.ac.uk><br>
Subject: Language code for "Scottish English"<br>
<br>
Derrick, Lorna,<br>
<br>
A topic has arisen on which you might possibly have some advice or<br>
opinions to offer: a proposal to register "en-scottish" (or possibly<br>
"en-scotland") as a code for cataloguing "Scottish English".<br>
<br>
The background is that there is an international standard system<br>
of codes for languages, which is widely used on the Internet.<br>
This has for example:<br>
<br>
en - English<br>
fr - French<br>
de - German<br>
ga - Irish Gaelic<br>
gd - Scottish Gaelic<br>
<br>
and a major extension which is in the last stages of becoming<br>
official extends this to all the languages of the world - e.g.:<br>
<br>
sco - Scots<br>
<br>
However, sometimes finer levels of granularity are required,<br>
and there is a system for this - e.g.:<br>
<br>
en-GB - British English ) These two arose early because of<br>
en-US - US English ) differences in orthography<br>
en-scouse<br>
<br>
and there is a system for registering further "variant tags".<br>
I happen to be on the e-mail list (ietf-languages@alvestrand.no)<br>
where these requests are discussed before being accepted or<br>
rejected.<br>
<br>
A request has come in to register "en-scottish". This was
from<br>
someone in charge of a video library who has a real need right now<br>
to catalogue two versions of the same film, one in Glasgow (mostly)<br>
dialect, and the other dubbed by the same actors into more standard<br>
English.<br>
<br>
The request has generated quite a lot of discussion. Many of the<br>
participants in the list are in America; many are not native<br>
English speakers; a few are in Ireland or England; none except<br>
for myself live in Scotland - So any insight you have to offer<br>
might be very helpful.<br>
<br>
Some of the questions so far have been:<br>
<br>
- Is "Scottish English" a useful concept? If so, how would<br>
you delineate it? Are there any good references which attempt<br>
to delineate it?<br>
<br>
- Might "Scottish Standard English" be a more useful term/concept?<br>
<br>
- Might it be better to register "en-glasgow", "en-edinburgh",
etc,<br>
and forget "en-scottish"?<br>
<br>
- If "Scottish English" is a useful concept, might "en-scotland"<br>
be a better code for it, on the grounds that:<br>
a) there would then be less likelihood of it being misapplied to
Scots;<br>
b) it could form the basis of a system which would also include
<br>
"en-england" and "en-wales".<br>
<br>
I'll forward to you copies of a few relevant messages from the list.<br>
<br>
Actually, another thought has just occured to me. The librarian<br>
requesting the tag, Karen Broome, wants to use "en-scottish"<br>
to tag the Glasgow dialect version of the film, and "en" to<br>
distinguish the version dubbed into more standard English.<br>
However, if the same Scottish actors were doing the dubbing,<br>
then the chances are that the dubbed version is in fact<br>
"Standard Scottish English" and the original version is stronger<br>
stuff. I'll e-mail her and ask her what the particular film in<br>
question is.<br>
<br>
Kevin<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:53:06 +0100<br>
From: Lorna Pike <sm00lp@groupwise.uhi.ac.uk><br>
To: Caoimhin O Donnaile <caoimhin@smo.uhi.ac.uk><br>
Cc: Chris.Robinson@ed.ac.uk,<br>
Maggie Scott <maggie.scott@scotsdictionaries.org.uk><br>
Subject: Re: Language code for "Scottish English"<br>
<br>
Dear Kevin<br>
<br>
Thanks for this, I am copying my reply to colleagues in Scottish<br>
Language Dictionaries who will have a view on this. Derrick may also<br>
contact them. My own initial feeling would be that anything in<br>
Scottish Standard English would be best tagged en-Scotland (and would<br>
fit in well with en-England, en-Wales, etc.) and anything Scots would be<br>
tagged Scots. I'd be reluctant to use en-Glasgow etc as this could<br>
easily be misapplied to Scots and Scots could end up by being accounted<br>
for only in terms of English labels. <br>
<br>
Full marks to Karen for raising this and regrettable that she met with<br>
resistance.<br>
<br>
All best<br>
Lorna<br>
<br>
Lorna Pike<br>
Project Co-ordinator<br>
Faclair na Gàidhlig<br>
Website: www.faclair.ac.uk<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:58:33 +0100<br>
From: Chris.Robinson@ed.ac.uk<br>
To: Lorna Pike <sm00lp@groupwise.uhi.ac.uk><br>
Cc: Caoimhin O Donnaile <caoimhin@smo.uhi.ac.uk>,<br>
Maggie Scott <maggie.scott@scotsdictionaries.org.uk><br>
Subject: Re: Language code for "Scottish English"<br>
<br>
Dear All,<br>
<br>
This is a very interesting question. As Scots is now recognised as a <br>
separate language, it should, obviously, have its own sco tag. <br>
English, as spoken in Scotland is widely referred to as Scottish <br>
Standard English (SSE) and en-Scotland would be the obvious tag, as <br>
Lorna suggests. The dialects of Glasgow and Edinburgh are best seen as
<br>
dialects of Scots rather than of English, although, as with almost all
<br>
examples of Modern Scots, there will be some SSE forms included. It is
<br>
best to tolerate these as 'shared' forms rather than fail to recognise
<br>
the Scots content. In an ideal world, we would have sco-Glasgow and so
<br>
on.<br>
<br>
<br>
To take the questions in turn<br>
<br>
> - Is "Scottish English" a useful concept? If
so, how would<br>
> you delineate it? Are there any good references
which attempt<br>
> to delineate it?<br>
<br>
Yes, Scottish English or, better, SSE is an recognised concept. There <br>
are several good articles/chapters on this which I will forward when I
<br>
am back in my office. The major differences lie in the pronunciation <br>
and a clear account of this appears in H. Giegerich's book, An <br>
Introduction to English Phonology (I think - will confirm) and in <br>
addition there are some grammatical differences and some vocabulary <br>
items.<br>
<br>
> - Might "Scottish Standard English" be a more useful
term/concept?<br>
<br>
Yes - this is the accepted one.<br>
<br>
> - Might it be better to register "en-glasgow", "en-edinburgh",
etc,<br>
> and forget "en-scottish"?<br>
<br>
Absolutely not. SSE, even if it is an artificial construct, approaches
<br>
a standard and pulls together similarities in the Scottish English <br>
throughout Scotland, tying in with notions of a Scotland-wide <br>
'correctness'. The ways in which the dialect areas of Scotland differ <br>
are predominantly products of the Scots elements of their language.<br>
<br>
> - If "Scottish English" is a useful concept, might
"en-scotland"<br>
> be a better code for it, on the grounds that:<br>
> a) there would then be less likelihood of it being misapplied
to<br>
> Scots;<br>
> b) it could form the basis of a system which would also
include<br>
> "en-england" and "en-wales".<br>
<br>
I agree totally. en-scotland for the English language as spoken in <br>
Scotland is a logical follow-on from en-England, en-Wales.<br>
<br>
> Actually, another thought has just occured to me. The librarian<br>
> requesting the tag, Karen Broome, wants to use "en-scottish"<br>
> to tag the Glasgow dialect version of the film, and "en"
to<br>
> distinguish the version dubbed into more standard English.<br>
> However, if the same Scottish actors were doing the dubbing,<br>
> then the chances are that the dubbed version is in fact<br>
> "Standard Scottish English" and the original version is
stronger<br>
> stuff. I'll e-mail her and ask her what the particular film
in<br>
> question is.<br>
<br>
If this is what it appears then what we really want is sco or<br>
sco-Glasgow contrasting with the dubbed version which, as you say,<br>
is likely to be en-Scotland<br>
<br>
It is really good to know that these issues are being tackled. I'll <br>
get back to you (hopefully later today) with some references. Feel <br>
free to ask anything else that occurs to you meanwhile.<br>
<br>
Chris.<br>
<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:52:28 +0100<br>
From: "McClure, J. Derrick" <j.d.mcclure@abdn.ac.uk><br>
To: Caoimhin O Donnaile <caoimhin@smo.uhi.ac.uk>, Lorna Pike <sm00lp@uhi.ac.uk><br>
Subject: RE: Language code for "Scottish English"<br>
<br>
Dear Kevin,<br>
<br>
Many
thanks for message - very interesting (and promising)<br>
that this has come up. To give my thoughts on your questions as you
ask<br>
them (maybe the best way to avoid getting sidetracked or writing in more<br>
detail than you need):<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> - Is "Scottish English" a useful concept? If
so, how would<br>
> you delineate it? Are there any good references
which attempt<br>
> to delineate it?<br>
<br>
It's an INDISPENSIBLE concept. It refers to the international English<br>
language as spoken in Scotland: distinguishable from other forms of<br>
English, first and most obviously by accent, but also to some extent by<br>
vocabulary, grammar and idiom. With due modesty, my chapter on "English<br>
in Scotland" in the Cambridge History of the English Language, vol.
5, is<br>
as good an attempt to expound what it is, where it came from, how it<br>
relates to Scots, etc., as there is in print; but I can give you other<br>
references if you need them! The three articles cited in Karen Broome's<br>
letter are all excellent descriptive studies - Wells is the most<br>
detailed, Trudgill contains a few errors (if I remember rightly). <br>
<br>
<br>
> - Might "Scottish Standard English" be a more useful
term/concept?<br>
<br>
Well, I wouldn't say more useful. If you bring in the word "standard"<br>
you're implicitly emphasising the concept of "English" as something
which<br>
has a world-wide "standard form" (that can only be as far as
grammar and<br>
vocabulary are concerned - there was never any question of an<br>
international standard of pronunciation) - but I'm increasingly inclined<br>
to see that as a dubious notion. The various forms of English - I<br>
dislike the expression "Englishes", but it's getting very popular
in<br>
linguistic circles" are steadily becoming more divergent, and the<br>
speakers of each of them more independent-minded about their distinctive<br>
forms: the idea of a "standard" is becoming ever more tenuous.
I<br>
personally would just say "Scottish English" - "American
English" -<br>
"English English" etc.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> - Might it be better to register "en-glasgow", "en-edinburgh",
etc,<br>
> and forget "en-scottish"?<br>
<br>
It might certainly be useful to use "en-glasgow", etc., but not
instead<br>
of "en-scottish": those are sub-sets of "en-scottish".
That is, at least<br>
as I see the situation, although the forms of English spoken in Glasgow,<br>
Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Galloway, Fife etc. certainly differ from each<br>
other, they all are Scottish to the extent that they all share features<br>
with each other that they don't share with any NON-Scottish forms of<br>
English (except POSSIBLY some Northern Irish forms). There is a<br>
"Scottish type" of accent with lots of sub-classes. (In
the same way,<br>
I'm inclined to think there's a "Southern Hemisphere type" in
that<br>
Australian, New Zealand, South African and (white) Zimbabwean accents<br>
have features in common though they're all different; I'm doubtful<br>
whether there is a "North American type" which could subsume
everything<br>
from Texas to California to the Canadian Maritimes but some might argue<br>
that there is; and there certainly is no "British type" which
would<br>
subsume all Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh accents (from which it<br>
follows that "en-UK" is simply erroneous, though I'm sure it's
commonly<br>
used). So you could use "en-glasgow" for a voice which
is pointedly and<br>
unmistakeably Glaswegian and "en-scottish" for one where the
regional<br>
features are less strongly marked.<br>
<br>
<br>
> - If "Scottish English" is a useful concept, might
"en-scotland"<br>
> be a better code for it, on the grounds that:<br>
> a) there would then be less likelihood of it being misapplied
to<br>
> Scots;<br>
> b) it could form the basis of a system which would also
include<br>
> "en-england" and "en-wales".<br>
<br>
Logically, "en-scotland" would be of a piece with "en-glasgow":
if you<br>
say "en-scottish" then you should also say "en-glaswegian"!
Pedantry<br>
apart, though, your point that "en-scotland" might be less liable
to be<br>
misapplied to Scots is a good one, I think.<br>
<br>
<br>
> Actually, another thought has just occured to me. The librarian<br>
> requesting the tag, Karen Broome, wants to use "en-scottish"<br>
> to tag the Glasgow dialect version of the film, and "en"
to<br>
> distinguish the version dubbed into more standard English.<br>
> However, if the same Scottish actors were doing the dubbing,<br>
> then the chances are that the dubbed version is in fact<br>
> "Standard Scottish English" and the original version is
stronger<br>
> stuff. I'll e-mail her and ask her what the particular film
in<br>
> question is.<br>
<br>
This is an excellent case in point for the "sub-set" issue. Most
likely,<br>
the original version is "en-glasgow" and the dubbed one "en-scottish".<br>
Though she calls it "British English", surely to Pete the
original<br>
actors wouldn't use an RP-type accent, which is what she probably thinks<br>
"British English" is! <br>
<br>
<br>
I hope these thoughts are helpful: please get back to me if there's<br>
anything you'd like clarified or discussed further.<br>
<br>
Yours
aye,<br>
<br>
Derrick.<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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