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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>The claim in Ethnologue is that the
language “<span class=SpellE>Schwyzerdütsch</span>” (aka “Swiss German”) is also
spoken in Austria, France, Germany and Liechtenstein although the name “<span
class=SpellE>Schwyzerdütsch</span>” is not generally used in those places; that
the name “<span class=SpellE>Allemanisch</span>” is sometimes used in reference
to this language; and further, that this language is distinct from languages
known as “<span class=SpellE>Swabian</span>” and “<span class=SpellE>Walser</span>”.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>That is the semantic that ISO 639-3 and
ISO 639-2 assume. I think this is consistent with your understanding and usage.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Now, I hear Mark saying that the name “<span
class=SpellE>Alemanic</span>” is not used to refer to Swiss German / <span
class=SpellE>Schwyzerdütsch</span> but rather is only used to refer to a range of
varieties of broader scope (a genetic sub-node, perhaps) of which Swiss German
is but one language. (Ethnologue shows <span class=SpellE>Schwyzerdütsch</span>
as being classified genetically in a branch of Germanic called “<span
class=SpellE>Alemannic</span>”.) The ISO 639 identifier “<span class=SpellE>gsw</span>”
is *<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>not</span></b>* intended to refer to such
a collection of languages.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>The only debate I see here is whether “<span
class=SpellE>Alemanic</span>” is ever used to refer to the specific language
denoted by “<span class=SpellE>gsw</span>”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>On the one hand, we see Ethnologue use “<span
class=SpellE>Alemannic</span>” in reference to the genetic <span class=SpellE>subnode</span>.
On the other, we see Ethnologue indicate that “<span class=SpellE>Alemannisch</span>”
is a name used to refer to the specific language also known as “<span
class=SpellE>Schwyzerdütsch</span>” or “Swiss German”. It appears to me that
Mark’s comments amount to one of the following:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;
tab-stops:list .5in'><![if !supportLists]><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;mso-fareast-font-family:Verdana;
mso-bidi-font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<font
size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=2 color=blue
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>questioning
the claim that “<span class=SpellE>Alemannisch</span>” is used as a name for
the specific language denoted by “<span class=SpellE>gsw</span>”, or<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;
tab-stops:list .5in'><![if !supportLists]><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;mso-fareast-font-family:Verdana;
mso-bidi-font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<font
size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=2 color=blue
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>a
request to clarify that, in listing “<span class=SpellE>Alemanic</span>” as an
English name for “<span class=SpellE>gsw</span>”, the intended denotation does
*<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>not</span></b>* encompass <span
class=SpellE>Alemannic</span> languages other than the one known as “<span
class=SpellE>Schwyzerdütsch</span>” or “Swiss German” (and perhaps other names)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>If it is the case that “<span
class=SpellE>Alemannisch</span>” is used in some places to refer to the
specific, individual language denoted by “<span class=SpellE>gsw</span>”, then
this is a good example for a problem that Gary Simons and I identified in a
paper back in 2000: the problem of clearly documenting what is the intended
denotation of a given language identifier. For, if “<span class=SpellE>Alemannisch</span>”
is used in this way, then it would seem that “<span class=SpellE>Alemanic</span>”
might actually be used in two different senses: one referring to an individual
language, and one referring to a collection of languages corresponding to a
genetic <span class=SpellE>subnode</span> of Germanic. But, “<span
class=SpellE>gsw</span>” does not denote either of those semantics according to
the whims of a given user; it denotes just one of those semantics, viz. the
former. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>(This is also a good example to show
that the objects of codification are not merely names but rather specific
concepts that are referenced by a given name – terms, not lexemes.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>So, then, how can the intended semantics
of the identifier “<span class=SpellE>gsw</span>” be clearly documented in ISO
639?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>In the past, for parts 1 and 2, all that
was provided was a list of names. In developing part 3, the RA and I both felt
that this was not adequate. Formally, we could not include the various kinds of
encyclopedic information that might actually be needed to make it clear what
the intended denotation of a given identifier actually is (machine-readable
tables need to have a well-formed structure with clear semantics for each data
category). What we could add formally are attributes, of which we added two: scope
and type. So, the data tables for 639-3 show in particular that “<span
class=SpellE>gsw</span>” has a scope of individual language. That at least
makes clear that the intended semantic for “<span class=SpellE>gsw</span>” is
not a collection of languages. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>But even that is not sufficient: perhaps
the range of language varieties under the Germanic/../<span class=SpellE>Alemannic</span>
classification <span class=GramE>are</span> being treated as a single,
individual language. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>To overcome such limitations and to provide
clear documentation of the intended denotation for each identifier, the ISO
639-3 Web site gives, for each entry, a “more…” link to a page that shows additional
information for the given identifier, and that additional info includes not
only the formal attributes of scope and type but also links to external
sources, including sources of an encyclopedic nature such as Ethnologue,
specifically for the purpose of documenting the denotation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>So, if you want to know an ID in ISO
639-3 is intended to mean, don’t just look at the list of names associated with
that ID since names alone cannot guarantee that the intended semantic is clearly
communicated. Rather, go to the ISO 639-3 Web site, get a report listing the
given ID, follow the “more…” link to the documentation for that particular ID
and look at *<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>all</span></b>* the information
provided there, including the links to external sources. (You can get to these
documentation pages directly using URLs such as the following example, for “<span
class=SpellE>gsw</span>”: <a
href="http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=gsw">http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=gsw</a>.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 30, 2006
5:55 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Peter Constable<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Håvard Hjulstad;
ietf-languages@iana.org; iso639@dkuug.dk; iso639-2@loc.gov; LTRU Working Group;
Mark Davis; zaiitov@gmail.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [Ltru] Alemanic &
Swiss German</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:sans-serif'>Are we reading the same Ethnologue page? Ethnologue
seems to include the Austrian forms and mentions that certain dialects within
this language family may not be intelligible to speakers of other dialects.</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>I'm
not trying to be difficult -- today :) -- and certainly appreciate your
previous help in sorting out these issues, but I have circulated the codes
gsw-CH and gsw-AT to a fairly wide audience based on assumptions that seem to
be fairly well-documented on Ethnologue, my application, ISO's approval, and
various other resources that lump these regional dialects together. Does 639-3
should have a macrolanguage for this? If not, should it? </span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>I'd
appreciate it if you could review your notes before acting on this suggested
change. </span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Best
regards,</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Karen
</span></font><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;font-weight:bold'>Peter Constable
<petercon@microsoft.com></span></font></b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
sans-serif'>11/30/2006 05:34 PM</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'><Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com></span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Håvard Hjulstad <HHj@standard.no>,
<ietf-languages@iana.org>,
<ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no>, <iso639@dkuug.dk>,
<iso639-2@loc.gov>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
<ISOJAC@loc.gov>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Mark
Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, <zaiitov@gmail.com></span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Subject</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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1.5pt'>
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<td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
<td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I’ll have to check email to be sure, but my
recollection was that I had suggested to you that the category that was already
in the draft table for 639-3 might meet your need, and that category was the
one coded “gsw” with semantics defined in Ethnologue. Definitely the JAC was
incorporating into part 2 the item in the draft code table for part 3; I
believe that all along the JAC understood that to have the semantics of “Swiss
German” (or “Schwyzerdütsch”) – certainly I did, but again I’d need to review
discussions to be more certain.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Peter</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com
[mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:51 PM<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'><br>
To:</span></b> Peter Constable<b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Cc:</span></b> Håvard Hjulstad; ietf-languages@iana.org;
ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no; iso639@dkuug.dk; iso639-2@loc.gov; ISO
639 Joint Advisory Committee; LTRU Working Group; Mark Davis; zaiitov@gmail.com<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Subject:</span></b> RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'><br>
Peter,</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'><br>
I'm not quite sure your take on this represents what was on my ISO application.
The application draws attention to other regions where Alemanic dialects can be
found (see: "addinfo" section). I believe the French name typically
indicates a broader range of dialects as well:</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
> > This data was submitted on: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 at 19:08:00<br>
> > <br>
> > lang_in_eng = Swiss German, Alemanic<br>
> > lang_in_fre = alémanique<br>
> > ref_where_found_1 = http://www.ethnologue.com<br>
> > lang_in_vern = Schwyzerdütsch, Schweizerdeutsch, Schwiizerdütsch, <br>
> Schwyzertütsch, Schwizertitsch<br>
> > ref_where_found_2 = ISO 639-3 DIS, http://www.ethnologue.com,
http://www.wikipedia.com<br>
> > trans_lit = <br>
> > evidence = AGICOA, the Association of International Collective <br>
> Management of Audiovisual Works (Association de Gestion Internationale <br>
> Collective des Oeuvres Audiovisuelles); 428 documents (audiovisual)<br>
> > <br>
> > http://www.agicoa.org<br>
> > addinfo = 4,215,000 in Switzerland (1990 census). Population total
all <br>
> countries: 6,044,000. Central, south central, north central, northeast, <br>
> and eastern cantons. Also spoken in Austria, France, Germany, <br>
> Liechtenstein.</span></font><br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'><br>
Regards,</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'><br>
Karen Broome<br>
Metadata Systems Designer<br>
Sony Pictures Entertainment<br>
310.244.4384</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;font-weight:bold'>Peter Constable
<petercon@microsoft.com></span></font></b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'> <br>
Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
sans-serif'>11/30/2006 02:59 PM</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="80%" valign=top style='width:80.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width="100%"
style='width:100.0%;mso-cellspacing:1.5pt'>
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:0;mso-yfti-firstrow:yes'>
<td width="4%" valign=top style='width:4.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>To</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="95%" valign=top style='width:95.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org></span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>cc</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>,
zaiitov@gmail.com, iso639-2@loc.gov, Håvard Hjulstad
<HHj@standard.no>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
<ISOJAC@loc.gov>, ietf-languages@iana.org, iso639@dkuug.dk</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style='mso-yfti-irow:2;mso-yfti-lastrow:yes'>
<td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Subject</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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style='width:100.0%;mso-cellspacing:1.5pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
<td width="50%" valign=top style='width:50.0%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
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</table>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><br>
I can tell you that the intent of “gsw” is specifically Swiss German, and that
the assumption of having “Alemanic” listed as a name is that some people use
that label to refer to specifically to Swiss German. If the latter assumption
is incorrect (which appears to be what Mark is saying, then that is a change
that the JAC should consider.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>But if Martin’s comment is the supporting
evidence, then I still find Martin’s comment to be unclear. It’s clear to me
what Mark is saying; it’s not clear to me if Martin is saying the same thing.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Peter Constable</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
[mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Davis<b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:07 AM<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'><br>
To:</span></b> Peter Constable<b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Cc:</span></b> Håvard Hjulstad; iso639-2@loc.gov; LTRU Working Group;
zaiitov@gmail.com; ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; ietf-languages@iana.org;
iso639@dkuug.dk<b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Subject:</span></b> Re: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Alemanic
refers to a broader group of dialects than "Swiss German" (aka
Schwyzertuesch) does. So listing them as it does is problematic; it's like
listing<br>
<br>
ar Arabic; Egyptian Arabic<br>
<br>
Personally, I don't care whether it is resolved to be <br>
<br>
Alemanic (including Swiss German) <br>
// which is what 639-3 seems to be pointing to<br>
<br>
or<br>
<br>
Swiss German (a particular variant of Alemanic)<br>
// which is what the code (gsw) seems to be pointing to<br>
<br>
But we need some clarity as to what is meant by the code. <br>
<br>
Mark <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On
11/30/06, <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Peter Constable</span></b> <<a
href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Martin's comment is somewhat vague: varieties
spoken on either side of the border are very similar, et "as soon as you
cross the border it's very clearly no longer Swiss German". Does that mean
that what is spoken across the border is clearly a different language, or that
the label "Swiss German" is clearly not used?</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Peter</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Mark Davis [mailto:</span></font><a
href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org" target="_blank"><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>mark.davis@icu-project.org</span></font></a><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:00 AM<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'><br>
To:</span></b> Håvard Hjulstad; </span></font><a href="mailto:iso639-2@loc.gov"
target="_blank"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>iso639-2@loc.gov</span></font></a><b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'><br>
Cc:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> LTRU Working Group; </span></font><a
href="mailto:zaiitov@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>zaiitov@gmail.com</span></font></a><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>; ISO 639
Joint Advisory Committee; </span></font><a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org"
target="_blank"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>ietf-languages@iana.org</span></font></a><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>; </span></font><a
href="mailto:iso639@dkuug.dk" target="_blank"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>iso639@dkuug.dk</span></font></a><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'><br>
Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ISO 639-2
(on </span></font><a
href="http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php" target="_blank"><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php</span></font></a><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>) lists the following:<br>
<br>
gsw Alemani; Swiss German
alémanique <br>
<br>
However, there is a "c" missing from Alemanic, and Swiss German is
not the same as Alemanic: Swiss German is a type of Alemanic, but there are
other types that are not the same as Swiss German.<br>
<br>
Quoting Martin Duerst: </span></font><br>
<br>
"Yes, Swabian is clearly Alemanic. Alemanic and Swiss German are not<br>
the same. There are very close similarities between some dialects in <br>
the north of Switzerland and across the border in Germany, but as<br>
soon as you cross the border, it's very clearly no longer Swiss<br>
German. A label such as "Alemanic; Swiss German", assuming that <br>
both are the same, is clearly wrong. If it's something like<br>
"Alemanic; includes Swiss German", that would be okay."<br>
<br>
Can this be corrected so that it does not continue to mislead people? <br>
<br>
Mark Davis <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>_______________________________________________<br>
Ietf-languages mailing list<br>
Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no<br>
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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