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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I’ll have to check email to be sure, but
my recollection was that I had suggested to you that the category that was
already in the draft table for 639-3 might meet your need, and that category
was the one coded “<span class=SpellE>gsw</span>” with semantics defined in
Ethnologue. Definitely the JAC was incorporating into part 2 the item in the
draft code table for part 3; I believe that all along the JAC understood that
to have the semantics of “Swiss German” (or “<span class=SpellE>Schwyzerdütsch</span>”)
– certainly I did, but again I’d need to review discussions to be more certain.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com [mailto:Karen_Broome@spe.sony.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 30, 2006
4:51 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Peter Constable<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Håvard Hjulstad;
ietf-languages@iana.org; ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no; iso639@dkuug.dk;
iso639-2@loc.gov; ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; LTRU Working Group; Mark
Davis; zaiitov@gmail.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [Ltru] Alemanic &
Swiss German</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:sans-serif'>Peter,</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>I'm
not quite sure your take on this represents what was on my ISO application. The
application draws attention to other regions where Alemanic dialects can be
found (see: "addinfo" section). I believe the French name typically
indicates a broader range of dialects as well:</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>>
> This data was submitted on: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 at 19:08:00<br>
> > <br>
> > lang_in_eng = Swiss German, Alemanic<br>
> > lang_in_fre = alémanique<br>
> > ref_where_found_1 = http://www.ethnologue.com<br>
> > lang_in_vern = Schwyzerdütsch, Schweizerdeutsch, Schwiizerdütsch, <br>
> Schwyzertütsch, Schwizertitsch<br>
> > ref_where_found_2 = ISO 639-3 DIS, http://www.ethnologue.com,
http://www.wikipedia.com<br>
> > trans_lit = <br>
> > evidence = AGICOA, the Association of International Collective <br>
> Management of Audiovisual Works (Association de Gestion Internationale <br>
> Collective des Oeuvres Audiovisuelles); 428 documents (audiovisual)<br>
> > <br>
> > http://www.agicoa.org<br>
> > addinfo = 4,215,000 in Switzerland (1990 census). Population total
all <br>
> countries: 6,044,000. Central, south central, north central, northeast, <br>
> and eastern cantons. Also spoken in Austria, France, Germany, <br>
> Liechtenstein.<br>
</span></font><br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Regards,</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Karen
Broome<br>
Metadata Systems Designer<br>
Sony Pictures Entertainment<br>
310.244.4384</span></font> <br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
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<![endif]><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;font-weight:bold'>Peter Constable
<petercon@microsoft.com></span></font></b><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'> </span></font><br>
<font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Sent
by: ietf-languages-bounces@alvestrand.no</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
sans-serif'>11/30/2006 02:59 PM</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>To</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org></span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>cc</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>,
zaiitov@gmail.com, iso639-2@loc.gov, Håvard Hjulstad
<HHj@standard.no>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
<ISOJAC@loc.gov>, ietf-languages@iana.org, iso639@dkuug.dk</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='text-align:right'><font size=1
face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Subject</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=sans-serif><span style='font-size:
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>I can tell you that the intent of “gsw” is
specifically Swiss German, and that the assumption of having “Alemanic” listed
as a name is that some people use that label to refer to specifically to Swiss
German. If the latter assumption is incorrect (which appears to be what Mark is
saying, then that is a change that the JAC should consider.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>But if Martin’s comment is the supporting
evidence, then I still find Martin’s comment to be unclear. It’s clear to me
what Mark is saying; it’s not clear to me if Martin is saying the same thing.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Peter Constable</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> mark.edward.davis@gmail.com
[mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Davis<b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:07 AM<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'><br>
To:</span></b> Peter Constable<b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Cc:</span></b> Håvard Hjulstad; iso639-2@loc.gov; LTRU Working Group;
zaiitov@gmail.com; ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; ietf-languages@iana.org;
iso639@dkuug.dk<b><span style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Subject:</span></b> Re: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Alemanic
refers to a broader group of dialects than "Swiss German" (aka
Schwyzertuesch) does. So listing them as it does is problematic; it's like
listing<br>
<br>
ar Arabic; Egyptian Arabic<br>
<br>
Personally, I don't care whether it is resolved to be <br>
<br>
Alemanic (including Swiss German) <br>
// which is what 639-3 seems to be pointing to<br>
<br>
or<br>
<br>
Swiss German (a particular variant of Alemanic)<br>
// which is what the code (gsw) seems to be pointing to<br>
<br>
But we need some clarity as to what is meant by the code. <br>
<br>
Mark <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On
11/30/06, <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Peter Constable</span></b> <<a
href="mailto:petercon@microsoft.com">petercon@microsoft.com</a>> wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Martin's comment is somewhat vague: varieties
spoken on either side of the border are very similar, et "as soon as you
cross the border it's very clearly no longer Swiss German". Does that mean
that what is spoken across the border is clearly a different language, or that
the label "Swiss German" is clearly not used?</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Peter</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:blue'> </span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Mark Davis [mailto:</span></font><a
href="mailto:mark.davis@icu-project.org" target="_blank"><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>mark.davis@icu-project.org</span></font></a><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'><br>
Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:00 AM<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'><br>
To:</span></b> Håvard Hjulstad; </span></font><a href="mailto:iso639-2@loc.gov"
target="_blank"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>iso639-2@loc.gov</span></font></a><b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'><br>
Cc:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> LTRU Working Group; </span></font><a
href="mailto:zaiitov@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>zaiitov@gmail.com</span></font></a><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>; ISO 639
Joint Advisory Committee; </span></font><a href="mailto:ietf-languages@iana.org"
target="_blank"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>ietf-languages@iana.org</span></font></a><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>; </span></font><a
href="mailto:iso639@dkuug.dk" target="_blank"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>iso639@dkuug.dk</span></font></a><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'><br>
Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'> [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ISO 639-2
(on </span></font><a
href="http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php" target="_blank"><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php</span></font></a><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>) lists the following:<br>
<br>
gsw Alemani; Swiss German
alémanique <br>
<br>
However, there is a "c" missing from Alemanic, and Swiss German is
not the same as Alemanic: Swiss German is a type of Alemanic, but there are
other types that are not the same as Swiss German.<br>
<br>
Quoting Martin Duerst: <br>
</span></font><br>
"Yes, Swabian is clearly Alemanic. Alemanic and Swiss German are not<br>
the same. There are very close similarities between some dialects in <br>
the north of Switzerland and across the border in Germany, but as<br>
soon as you cross the border, it's very clearly no longer Swiss<br>
German. A label such as "Alemanic; Swiss German", assuming that <br>
both are the same, is clearly wrong. If it's something like<br>
"Alemanic; includes Swiss German", that would be okay."<br>
<br>
Can this be corrected so that it does not continue to mislead people? <br>
<br>
Mark Davis <o:p></o:p></p>
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