Language Subtag Registration -- "wpsimple"

Sat Oct 31 11:22:15 CET 2015

The request isn't for "simple"; it's for "wpsimple". That's what I'm commenting on.

I can understand what the basic intent would be of de-simple and fr-simple (though there's a side discussion as to whether "simple language" is really that simple). But for de-wpsimple and fr-wpsimple, the intent of "wpsimple" would be different in each case, the only real commonality being the "wp" part.

Peter

Sent from my IBM 3277/APL
________________________________
From: Mark Davis ☕️<mailto:mark at macchiato.com>
Sent: ‎10/‎30/‎2015 19:01
To: Peter Constable<mailto:petercon at microsoft.com>
Cc: Michael Everson<mailto:everson at evertype.com>; ietflang IETF Languages Discussion<mailto:ietf-languages at iana.org>; amir.aharoni at mail.huji.ac.il<mailto:amir.aharoni at mail.huji.ac.il>
Subject: Re: Language Subtag Registration -- "wpsimple"

Mark

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com<mailto:petercon at microsoft.com>> wrote:
There is enough of a conventional understanding of what “de” means to make it useful in public interchange. A variant subtag, inherently, is denoting something narrower, with an even greater level of specificity implied. If there isn’t greater specificity, then you don’t have a useful variant subtag.

It *is* more specific, and *is* useful. "de-simple" is clearly intended to be a simple form of "de". "fr-simple" is intended to be simple form of "fr", etc.

That’s all fundamentals about subtags generally. Now let’s consider the kinds of greater specificity that can be useful in a generic variant subtag. In the case of, say, “1900”, the tag implicitly has a clear semantic that can potentially be applied to any language — it’s pretty obvious that this would denote some language-related conventions that are somehow associated with the year 1900.

But in this case, the proposed subtag is intended to denote some other kind of specificity. It’s a specificity that can make sense when described in terms of a particular language. But to make it generic across languages, the only way to have it remain meaningful is to identify some common point of reference that can be applied across languages.

You could say, Well, it means whatever Wikipedia decides it wants it to mean.

I didn't say that; I think you may have quickly skimmed what I said. What I believe is that having this level of specificity would be sufficient for the majority of the people that would need this tag. They would want to mark versions of content as simpler than others.

constable.com/fr-simple/..<http://constable.com/fr-simple/..>..
vs
constable.com/fr/.<http://constable.com/fr/.>..

But, is that really what we’d want to do? Would we want to accept “ibmsimple” or “sirisimple”? Besides cherry-picking products/applications/organizations we’d allow to have such tags, are these tags that are really useful in public interchange?

The only reason IBM would need "ibmsimple", or rather "fr-simple-ibm666" for some IBM standard, is if they had multiple "simple" versions.

I really think we should register a variant subtag in this case if it can be described as a specific variant of a particular language without reference to any single application, and if that’s a variant that has potential use beyond a single application.

That just promotes a needless proliferation of subtags, to no particularly good end.

One should keep simple things simple.

Peter

From: mark.edward.davis at gmail.com<mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com> [mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com<mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com>] On Behalf Of Mark Davis ??
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 10:07 AM
To: Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com<mailto:petercon at microsoft.com>>
Cc: Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com<mailto:everson at evertype.com>>; ietflang IETF Languages Discussion <ietf-languages at iana.org<mailto:ietf-languages at iana.org>>; amir.aharoni at mail.huji.ac.il<mailto:amir.aharoni at mail.huji.ac.il>

Subject: Re: Language Subtag Registration -- "wpsimple"

I think the opposite. We don't fully specify what "de" means when coming from any of thousands of sources, yet is it quite useful. Overspecification makes the system *less* useful rather than *more* useful.

de-simple would be perfectly meaningful, and mark some simplified version of de. Anyone with a website that needs two versions, ordinary and simple, could use that.

IF it became necessary to have further qualifications, those could be added:

de-simple-din666
or
de-simple-wikiped

The advantage of this system is that a consumer of the tag can use the standard progressive truncation and get something that is more likely to be useful for the user.

I agree with Michael that this is a common enough need to have a standardized tag. A private use tag for a common need just makes everyone's lives more complicated.

Mark

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 8:22 AM, Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com<mailto:petercon at microsoft.com>> wrote:
I think that generalization would not be helpful. Once you do that, then foo-wpsimple becomes available for anybody to use with absolutely no convention as to what "wpsimple" is supposed to mean, making it basically useless except in a private context.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Ietf-languages [mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no<mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no>] On Behalf Of Michael Everson
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2015 6:07 AM
To: ietflang IETF Languages Discussion <ietf-languages at iana.org<mailto:ietf-languages at iana.org>>
Cc: amir.aharoni at mail.huji.ac.il<mailto:amir.aharoni at mail.huji.ac.il>
Subject: Re: Language Subtag Registration -- "wpsimple"

On 30 Oct 2015, at 01:54, Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com<mailto:petercon at microsoft.com>> wrote:
>
> We should have variant subtags that refer to a particular variety. I don't mind if that variety happens to be one associated with a particular organization or application, so long as it has potential utility beyond that organization or application.

I have already said that wpsimple would be extensible to other Wikimedia Foundation variants.

Michael
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