Montenegrin
Leif Halvard Silli
xn--mlform-iua at xn--mlform-iua.no
Wed Jun 16 16:03:31 CEST 2010
Milos Rancic, Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:19:55 +0200:
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 13:30, Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
>> John Cowan, Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:29:55 -0400:
>>> ISO639-3 scripsit:
[…]
> Treating Serbo-Croatian as a macrolanguage is not quite good solution.
> The term is ambiguous, there is no such thing as "Common
> Serbo-Croatian language" in the genetic (not prescribed) sense; as
> well as the majority of domestic population really don't like that
> term because of various reasons.
'sh' *is* treated as macrolanguage, in the Language Subtag Registry:
%%
Type: language
Subtag: sh
Description: Serbo-Croatian
Added: 2005-10-16
Scope: macrolanguage
Comments: sr, hr, bs are preferred for most modern uses
%%
You and I agree that it is questionable whether it is correct to
consider 'sh' a macrolangauge. However, we should not ask the 'domestic
population' about whether this is correct, but instead concentrate on
'macrolanguage' as understood by BCP47 etc - in combination with a
understanding of what 'sh' historically has referred to.
> It is ambiguous term because it may mean two things: (1) standards
> based on previous Serbo-Croatian standard, when it includes just
> standards based on Neo-Shtokavian language system; and (2) all
> language systems from the former Serbo-Croatian diasystem, when it
> includes: Neo-Shtokavian, Old-Shtokavian (which is also ambiguous
> term; see below), Chakavian and Kaykavian.
That it is an ambiguous term is not an argument against the very
existence of the language subtag 'sh'.
> If it means (1), then it is much better to call it Neo-Shtokavian or
> Shtokavian. And it is hard to say that it is a "macrolanguage", it is
> one language system with four varieties, very comparable with Spanish
> standard varieties.
>
> If it means (2), it is largely a political construct, which doesn't
> have political support anymore. Before WWII, Western Macedonian
> dialects were treated as a part of Serbo-Croatian diasystem. Purely
> linguistically speaking, it is similarly today with Kaykavian,
> Chakavian and Torlakian (as a part of "Old-Shtokavian" dialects).
> However, there are no separate ethnic identity among them (the first
> two groups are treating themselves as Croats, the second group is
> treating themselves as Serbs or Bulgarians, depending on heredity).
To be clear: the disappeared political support that you talk about, is
not the political construct that made us all consider
Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian as one language, but the political support
which tried to include more than that/those language(s) under the
Serbo-Croatian umbrella.
I believe that the more constructed it is, the more is is correct to
consider it a macrolanguage. Thus, if 'sh' has been used to refer to
(2), then it is correct to continue of the Language Subtag Registry to
say that it is a macrolanguage.
However, the reason why I question whether it is correct to consider
'sh' a macrolanguage, is based on the understanding that
'Serbo-Croatian' refers to (1) - the standardized Neo-Shtokavian
form(s). It may still be correct consider it a macrolanguage - I don't
know - but it doesn't fit my understanding of how 'macrolanguage'
should be used.
[...]
> To conclude, all four standards (Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and
> Montenegrin) have one language system (paradoxically, with Montenegrin
> as the most distant of those) and, linguistically speaking, it is not
> a macrolanguage, but a language.
Hence, the the Language Subtag Registry is currently incorrect, it
seems to me.
> However, it is highly unrealistic to
> move back them to "sh-RS" etc., which would be the most precise
> description of the variants (actually, something like "hbs-srp" would
> be the most precise; while, again, it is better to put group
> abbreviation based on (Neo-)Shtokavian).
>
> Thus, the most realistic approach is to allow Montenegrins to take
> their ISO 639 codes, conclude one part of the history and mistakes and
> put on some future agenda to solve this issue more appropriately than
> it has been solved during the past two decades.
Part of John's justification for a separate language subtag for
Montenegrin, was - as I understood him - that 'sh' would then cover
them all - as a macrolanguage.
I don't think that it is necessarily is necessary to keep 'sh' as a
macrolanguage in order to support a separate tag for Montenegrin. My
point here, was only and solely to question whether 'sh' is a
macrolanguage.
--
leif halvard silli
More information about the Ietf-languages
mailing list