No subject


Sun Dec 6 01:12:07 CET 2009


"Nynorsk is considered more purist than Bokm=E5l. And as a result=2C  Danis=
h=20
sometimes appears closer to Nynorsk than to Bokm=E5l. Probably because=20
there is 1) a tendency in Bokm=E5l of wanting to separate itself from=20
Nynorsk  - leading to archaisms and "book language" and 2) a love=20
amongst Danish users for one's own language - thus no need amongst them=20
to be "more Danish than the pope". As a practical example: In Danish=20
they use "purist" names for the grammatical terms ('substantive'=2C=20
'verb' etc)=2C whereas Norwegian has ended up with mostly the Latin=20
terms. I read an English detective book in Danish once=2C and had many=20
revelations from it also regarding how sentences are built-up - so it=20
is not only the vocabulary either ... "


[ http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2010-January/009892.htm=
l ]

=20

But this seems to be something we should not do . . . )

=20

Best=2C

=20

C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar at hotmail.com=20


=20
> Date: Wed=2C 6 Jan 2010 16:36:41 +0100
> From: xn--mlform-iua at xn--mlform-iua.no
> To: cowan at ccil.org
> CC: cewcathar at hotmail.com=3B ietf-languages at iana.org
> Subject: Re: Variant subtag proposal: H=F8gnorsk variety of Norwegian
>=20
> John Cowan=2C Tue=2C 5 Jan 2010 21:44:51 -0500:
> > CE Whitehead scripsit:
> >=20
> >> I personally would be fine with a comment that 'hognorsk' is closer
> >> to [nn] than to bokmal. and with info. about what dialects are most
> >> prevalent in 'hognorsk'=2C in [nn]=2C versus in 'bokmal'--in the comme=
nts
> >> on the 'hognorsk' variant--if that does not violate any tradition
> >> (obviously hognorsk is closer to [nn] since we chose the [nn] prefix).
> >=20
> > We don't normally use such comments=3B in any case=2C 'hognorsk' is clo=
se=20
> > to every Norwegian dialect in its non-Danicized form.
>=20
> +1
>=20
> I'm sure that we would resist repeating cliches about dialect links in=20
> the registry - whether about Nynorsk or about the H=F8gnorsk variant.
>=20
> Nynorsk _usage_ has its strongholds in certain (generally speaking=20
> rural) areas of Norway and within certain (generally speaking national=20
> - and often located in the cities/centers) structures/institutions of=20
> the Norwegian society. Many of the intellectual resources of Nynorsk=20
> are also headquartered in Oslo. The New Norwegian language was captured=20
> in a form that was meant to serve as a common denominator for all=20
> Norwegian dialects - and the "Nynorsk projeect" was from the start=20
> founded by the parliament. The H=F8gnorsk proponents are found within=20
> these same walks of Nynorsk life.
>=20
> Due to several issues=2C Bokm=E5l is often /associated/ with Oslo and=20
> Eastern Norway. While Nynorsk is often /associated/ with Western=20
> Norway. These perceptions aren't correct=2C even if they capture a=20
> certain [over-valued] tendency w.r.t the which municipalities and=20
> counties that have Nynorsk as its official Norwegian language.=20
> Linguistically it is even more problematic. But these perceptions pose=20
> a real [internal and external] problem for anyone who tries to present=20
> Nynorsk/H=F8gnorsk as the New Norwegian language. H=F8gnorsk Nynorsk=20
> insists - stronger than the Official Nynorsk does - on the need of=20
> recognizing traditional Nynorsk as an all-dialects-encompassing=20
> Norwegian language - and therefore resists that is being made less=20
> all-encompassing by seeking closeness to Bokm=E5l.
> --=20
> leif halvard silli
 		 	   		  =

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<BR>Hi!<BR>
Sorry for my suggestion then=2C if you all are happy with things (and I gue=
ss you are).<BR>I was trying to find a compromise solution--some way that s=
ome of the information on Norwegian in the posts<BR>could be incorporated i=
nto the subtag registration to a point that it would make everyone happy<BR=
>(though as I said I did not see how a comment would solve the problem of c=
ompatibility).<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
The comment that one of you all suggested be incorporated--which I guess yo=
u suggested facetiously=2C<BR>
"I suggest to have an explicit comment saying that 'hognorsk' should not <B=
R>use 'nb' as prefix=2C as that would be a contradiction in terms."<BR>
<BR>( <A href=3D"http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2010-Jan=
uary/009907.html">http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2010-Ja=
nuary/009907.html</A>&nbsp=3B)<BR>
could not be incorporated=2C<BR>
and I was trying to think of some information that could be incorporated.<B=
R>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
(I wrote my message in a hurry=3B<BR>here is the information from some of t=
he posts&nbsp=3Bthat I thought might be incorporated to some extent:<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
from Thorgeir: <BR>
"I would say that one should use 'nn' for traditional Norse dialects=2C <BR=
>'nb' for the Nor-Danish creole=2C and 'no' if it's too much of a mix. <BR>=
Regional variant tags can then determine the specific dialect or accent=2C =
<BR>e.g. 'nb-oslo' for the traditional upper class sociolect of Oslo=2C <BR=
>'no-oslo' for the traditional working class sociolect of Oslo=2C and <BR>'=
nn-oslo' for the now nearly extinct traditional Norse dialect of Oslo.<BR>
<BR>[ <A href=3D"http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2009-Dec=
ember/009862.html">http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2009-D=
ecember/009862.html</A>&nbsp=3B]=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
From&nbsp=3BLief:<BR>"Nynorsk is considered more purist than Bokm=E5l. And =
as a result=2C&nbsp=3B Danish <BR>sometimes appears closer to Nynorsk than =
to Bokm=E5l. Probably because <BR>there is 1) a tendency in Bokm=E5l of wan=
ting to separate itself from <BR>Nynorsk&nbsp=3B - leading to archaisms and=
 "book language" and 2) a love <BR>amongst Danish users for one's own langu=
age - thus no need amongst them <BR>to be "more Danish than the pope". As a=
 practical example: In Danish <BR>they use "purist" names for the grammatic=
al terms ('substantive'=2C <BR>'verb' etc)=2C whereas Norwegian has ended u=
p with mostly the Latin <BR>terms. I read an English detective book in Dani=
sh once=2C and had many <BR>revelations from it also regarding how sentence=
s are built-up - so it <BR>is not only the vocabulary either ... "<BR>
<BR>[ <A href=3D"http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2010-Jan=
uary/009892.html">http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2010-Ja=
nuary/009892.html</A>&nbsp=3B]<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
But this seems to be something we should not do . . . )<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Best=2C<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar at hotmail.com">cewcathar at hotmail.com</A> <BR>
<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B Date: Wed=2C 6 Jan 2010 16:36:41 +0100<BR>&gt=3B Fro=
m: xn--mlform-iua at xn--mlform-iua.no<BR>&gt=3B To: cowan at ccil.org<BR>&gt=3B =
CC: cewcathar at hotmail.com=3B ietf-languages at iana.org<BR>&gt=3B Subject: Re:=
 Variant subtag proposal: H=F8gnorsk variety of Norwegian<BR>&gt=3B <BR>&gt=
=3B John Cowan=2C Tue=2C 5 Jan 2010 21:44:51 -0500:<BR>&gt=3B &gt=3B CE Whi=
tehead scripsit:<BR>&gt=3B &gt=3B <BR>&gt=3B &gt=3B&gt=3B I personally woul=
d be fine with a comment that 'hognorsk' is closer<BR>&gt=3B &gt=3B&gt=3B t=
o [nn] than to bokmal. and with info. about what dialects are most<BR>&gt=
=3B &gt=3B&gt=3B prevalent in 'hognorsk'=2C in [nn]=2C versus in 'bokmal'--=
in the comments<BR>&gt=3B &gt=3B&gt=3B on the 'hognorsk' variant--if that d=
oes not violate any tradition<BR>&gt=3B &gt=3B&gt=3B (obviously hognorsk is=
 closer to [nn] since we chose the [nn] prefix).<BR>&gt=3B &gt=3B <BR>&gt=
=3B &gt=3B We don't normally use such comments=3B in any case=2C 'hognorsk'=
 is close <BR>&gt=3B &gt=3B to every Norwegian dialect in its non-Danicized=
 form.<BR>&gt=3B <BR>&gt=3B +1<BR>&gt=3B <BR>&gt=3B I'm sure that we would =
resist repeating cliches about dialect links in <BR>&gt=3B the registry - w=
hether about Nynorsk or about the H=F8gnorsk variant.<BR>&gt=3B <BR>&gt=3B =
Nynorsk _usage_ has its strongholds in certain (generally speaking <BR>&gt=
=3B rural) areas of Norway and within certain (generally speaking national =
<BR>&gt=3B - and often located in the cities/centers) structures/institutio=
ns of <BR>&gt=3B the Norwegian society. Many of the intellectual resources =
of Nynorsk <BR>&gt=3B are also headquartered in Oslo. The New Norwegian lan=
guage was captured <BR>&gt=3B in a form that was meant to serve as a common=
 denominator for all <BR>&gt=3B Norwegian dialects - and the "Nynorsk proje=
ect" was from the start <BR>&gt=3B founded by the parliament. The H=F8gnors=
k proponents are found within <BR>&gt=3B these same walks of Nynorsk life.<=
BR>&gt=3B <BR>&gt=3B Due to several issues=2C Bokm=E5l is often /associated=
/ with Oslo and <BR>&gt=3B Eastern Norway. While Nynorsk is often /associat=
ed/ with Western <BR>&gt=3B Norway. These perceptions aren't correct=2C eve=
n if they capture a <BR>&gt=3B certain [over-valued] tendency w.r.t the whi=
ch municipalities and <BR>&gt=3B counties that have Nynorsk as its official=
 Norwegian language. <BR>&gt=3B Linguistically it is even more problematic.=
 But these perceptions pose <BR>&gt=3B a real [internal and external] probl=
em for anyone who tries to present <BR>&gt=3B Nynorsk/H=F8gnorsk as the New=
 Norwegian language. H=F8gnorsk Nynorsk <BR>&gt=3B insists - stronger than =
the Official Nynorsk does - on the need of <BR>&gt=3B recognizing tradition=
al Nynorsk as an all-dialects-encompassing <BR>&gt=3B Norwegian language - =
and therefore resists that is being made less <BR>&gt=3B all-encompassing b=
y seeking closeness to Bokm=E5l.<BR>&gt=3B -- <BR>&gt=3B leif halvard silli=
<BR> 		 	   		  </body>
</html>=

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