Request for variant subtag fr 16th-c 17th-c RESUBMISSION
cewcathar at hotmail.com
Sat Jan 27 21:25:15 CET 2007
Hi! My responses are below!
Basically I was able to catalogue three main varieties of 17th century
French texts; I am sure there are more! But these may be the main texts. I
do not have texts of any Creole French developing in the Caribbean; the only
French Creole developing on the North American continent was a mix of French
with English (the French-English traders were interracting, squabbling)
which includes Native vocabulary; there were few Africans on the Continent
though there must have been some in the Caribbean as that is apparently a
place where the colony of Carolina could go to exchange Natives captured
around the Carolina who might run away or cause trouble for slaves of
African ancestry who would not know their way around the Carolinas.
See below for more:
>CE Whitehead responded to a message of mine:
> > >But I am struggling to see how the currently proposed (single-prefix)
> > >will help with these objectives. They are "frm-1606Nict" or
> > >"frm-16siecle";
> > >"fr-1694acad" or "fr-17siecle"; and plain old "frm" and "fr".
> > >
Really even in early 16th century texts (such as Rabelais, 1532; see
http://18.104.22.168/images/Rabelais-pronost.gif ) French is quite different
than it was in the 15th century.
In fact Rabelais texts seems to me to be like the French in the later texts
from this century (from the Pleiade, from Montaigne)
except I notice some odd insertions of l after au before c, t, etc:
aucune (fr modern, "not one") > aulcune (Rabelais)
autre (fr modern, "other") > aultre (Rabelais)
(See Spécificités du corpus Rabelais par rapport au corpus XVIe du
"Le vocabulaire spécifique." http://22.214.171.124/specif.html#fn1
"Spécificités du corpus Rabelais par rapport au corpus XVIe du
"DEFICITS ordre alphabétique" http://126.96.36.199/specif.html#fn2)
Many 17th century texts from France, such as Moliere's
(1665) "Dome Juan ou le festin de Pierre"
are just like the texts from the Pleiade and Montaigne!!
There is no distinction.
But given the limitations that have been imposed on me, there is no way to
however I (who am sometimes a pragmatist rather than an idealist)
felt it would be better to have subtags for the 16th and 17th centuries to
allow the French in these centuries to be distinguished from the French that
precedes these and follows these,
regardless of what the subtags might/might not show.
But you are right: The tag description or comments will really have to
include something to show that the French in these 2 centuries can be the
17th century French can really be divided into three groups:
A. French that is essentially late 16th century:
* 1606 Marc Lescarbot's "Théâtre de Neptune," with classical and North
American elements, which was the first French play to be presented in North
America and focused on North American content (so this would be the
difference between Lescarbot and Moliere below but actually Moliere's plays
can mention life in the Americas as well:
* 1665 Moliere's "Dome Juan ou le festin de Pierre"
B. French that is essentially modern though there may be differences in
vocabulary, especially in the way it is used, in the way people present
occasionally there may be a minor differences in spelling though not
apparently in pronunciation;
in particular, this includes French from the literary salons as well as the
so-called 'rentable' texts and satires of the courtly circles:
* 1668-1694 Jean de la Fontaine--fables/satire, 'rentable texts;' he "must
be ranked with Racine as a poet and with the great moralists, is one of the
masters of the age. In his Fables (166894) he used the framework of the
moral fable of Aesop. He brought to each fable, however, the ease and
narrative interest of the short story. The use of animals as characters in
an age of censorship enabled him to give free reign to his wit, fancy,
humor, and observation on human weaknesses."
(once or twice I found a spelling only variation, no changes in
pronunciation from modern French)
* 1678 Mme de La Fayette "La Princesse de Cleves"
* 1690's Charles Perrault (gathered up old folktales and retold them, told
his writing marked a departure for sure from the enthusiasm for the
classical of the 16th century!)
C. French that mixes elements of 16th century French, 15th century or
earlier French, and modern French, and that may have irregular spellings and
irregular use of accent marks, plus has some mixed French-English terms
(such as "traitta" I think-- English 'treated' from treaty; this is the
French word treat, the regular simple past, but treaty would be something
else in French; ) and many Native terms (such as "canot," for 'canoe') such
as the text of Nicholas de la Salle le jeune, which started all this trouble
* 1684 Nicholas de la Salle
(there may also be a French Creole with elements of African languages
developing in the Caribbean but I have no examples of it in writing to cite;
if you have it would be great)
If we covered the latter instance with the subtag:
Description: Northern America
What would we do then with
Lescarbot's "Théâtre de Neptune"
The comment line in the subtag registration is one place to deal with this.
The only one we are allowed perhaps. Or at least the easiest place to deal
I've got to come up with better comments that include more of this.
All the variants are in the 1694 dicitonary!!! (Just amazing!)
for the subtag:
perhaps I could get all this in:
Comments: several varieties of French, including the variety used in the
16th century, a more modern variety (essentially modern, save differences in
usage), and other more irregular varieties with elements of 15th century
French, as well as 16th century French.
we just might need to say that it is more modern than 15th century French
and that similar French continues to be spoken in the 17th century.
(Also I thought about your question about how to distinguish a translation?
Is there any point in adopting a variant subtag such as transl or trans
that says that a text is a translation; thus it could contain archaic
vocabulary, etc; it could even specify the original language in case the
person who retrieves the text wants to look at texts in the orginal?? just
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar at hotmail.com
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