[Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German

Gerard Meijssen gerardm at wiktionaryz.org
Fri Dec 1 08:22:35 CET 2006


Hoi,
The word "Swiss German" is easily mistaken for "German Swiss" as in 
German spoken in Switzerland which is something different again. 
Alemanic serves a need. I am not a specialist on the subject but the 
differences seem to be no bigger that those that exist for other 
accepted codes like Neapolitan for instance. Here there is an old 
orthography, people have been denied schooling in their language and 
many transcribe their Neapolitan when they write it. Here it leads to 
discussions denying that their language is Neapolitan because it is 
equated with how the language is spoken in the town of Naples.

The point is that names for languages where the borders of a 
geographical or political area do not coincide with the distribution of 
a language are dangerous because it will have people deny that they 
speak that language. It will lead to even more requests for new 
"languages" when the reasons for them are political.

Thanks,
    Gerard

Mark Davis schreef:
> It sounds more and more to me that "Alemanic" was simply a mistake; 
> the description should be "Swiss German" alone, both in 639-2 and 639-3.
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/30/06, *Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com 
> <mailto:Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com>* <Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com 
> <mailto:Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Are we reading the same Ethnologue page? Ethnologue seems to
>     include the Austrian forms and mentions that certain dialects
>     within this language family may not be intelligible to speakers of
>     other dialects.
>
>     I'm not trying to be difficult  -- today :) -- and certainly
>     appreciate your previous help in sorting out these issues, but I
>     have circulated the codes gsw-CH and gsw-AT to a fairly wide
>     audience based on assumptions that seem to be fairly
>     well-documented on Ethnologue, my application, ISO's approval, and
>     various other resources that lump these regional dialects
>     together. Does 639-3 should have a macrolanguage for this? If not,
>     should it?
>
>     I'd appreciate it if you could review your notes before acting on
>     this suggested change.
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     Karen
>
>
>
>     *Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com
>     <mailto:petercon at microsoft.com>>*
>
>     11/30/2006 05:34 PM
>
>     	
>     To
>     	<Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com <mailto:Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com>>
>     cc
>     	Håvard Hjulstad <HHj at standard.no <mailto:HHj at standard.no>>,
>     <ietf-languages at iana.org <mailto:ietf-languages at iana.org>>, <
>     ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no
>     <mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no>>, <iso639 at dkuug.dk
>     <mailto:iso639 at dkuug.dk>>, < iso639-2 at loc.gov
>     <mailto:iso639-2 at loc.gov>>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
>     <ISOJAC at loc.gov <mailto:ISOJAC at loc.gov>>, LTRU Working Group <
>     ltru at ietf.org <mailto:ltru at ietf.org>>, Mark Davis
>     <mark.davis at icu-project.org <mailto:mark.davis at icu-project.org>>,
>     < zaiitov at gmail.com <mailto:zaiitov at gmail.com>>
>     Subject
>     	RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>
>
>     	
>
>
>
>
>
>     I'll have to check email to be sure, but my recollection was that
>     I had suggested to you that the category that was already in the
>     draft table for 639-3 might meet your need, and that category was
>     the one coded "gsw" with semantics defined in Ethnologue.
>     Definitely the JAC was incorporating into part 2 the item in the
>     draft code table for part 3; I believe that all along the JAC
>     understood that to have the semantics of "Swiss German" (or
>     "Schwyzerdütsch") – certainly I did, but again I'd need to review
>     discussions to be more certain.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Peter
>
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *From:* Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com
>     <mailto:Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com> [mailto:
>     Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com <mailto:Karen_Broome at spe.sony.com>] *
>     Sent:* Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:51 PM*
>     To:* Peter Constable*
>     Cc:* Håvard Hjulstad; ietf-languages at iana.org
>     <mailto:ietf-languages at iana.org>;
>     ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no
>     <mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no>; iso639 at dkuug.dk
>     <mailto:iso639 at dkuug.dk>; iso639-2 at loc.gov
>     <mailto:iso639-2 at loc.gov>; ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; LTRU
>     Working Group; Mark Davis; zaiitov at gmail.com
>     <mailto:zaiitov at gmail.com>*
>     Subject:* RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>      
>
>
>     Peter,
>
>     I'm not quite sure your take on this represents what was on my ISO
>     application. The application draws attention to other regions
>     where Alemanic dialects can be found (see: "addinfo" section). I
>     believe the French name typically indicates a broader range of
>     dialects as well:
>
>     > > This data was submitted on: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 at 19:08:00
>     > >
>     > > lang_in_eng = Swiss German, Alemanic
>     > > lang_in_fre = alémanique
>     > > ref_where_found_1 = http://www.ethnologue.com
>     > > lang_in_vern = Schwyzerdütsch, Schweizerdeutsch, Schwiizerdütsch,
>     > Schwyzertütsch, Schwizertitsch
>     > > ref_where_found_2 = ISO 639-3 DIS, http://www.ethnologue.com,
>     http://www.wikipedia.com
>     > > trans_lit =
>     > > evidence = AGICOA, the Association of International Collective
>     > Management of Audiovisual Works (Association de Gestion
>     Internationale
>     > Collective des Oeuvres Audiovisuelles); 428 documents (audiovisual)
>     > >
>     > > http://www.agicoa.org
>     > > addinfo = 4,215,000 in Switzerland (1990 census). Population
>     total all
>     > countries: 6,044,000. Central, south central, north central,
>     northeast,
>     > and eastern cantons. Also spoken in Austria, France, Germany,
>     > Liechtenstein.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Karen Broome
>     Metadata Systems Designer
>     Sony Pictures Entertainment
>     310.244.4384
>
>     *Peter Constable <petercon at microsoft.com
>     <mailto:petercon at microsoft.com>>*
>     Sent by: ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no
>     <mailto:ietf-languages-bounces at alvestrand.no>
>
>     11/30/2006 02:59 PM
>
>     	
>     To
>     	Mark Davis <mark.davis at icu-project.org
>     <mailto:mark.davis at icu-project.org>>
>     cc
>     	LTRU Working Group <ltru at ietf.org <mailto:ltru at ietf.org>>,
>     zaiitov at gmail.com <mailto:zaiitov at gmail.com>, iso639-2 at loc.gov
>     <mailto:iso639-2 at loc.gov>, Håvard Hjulstad <HHj at standard.no
>     <mailto:HHj at standard.no>>, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
>     <ISOJAC at loc.gov <mailto:ISOJAC at loc.gov>>, ietf-languages at iana.org
>     <mailto:ietf-languages at iana.org>, iso639 at dkuug.dk
>     <mailto:iso639 at dkuug.dk>
>     Subject
>     	RE: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>      
>
>
>       	 
>
>
>
>
>
>     I can tell you that the intent of "gsw" is specifically Swiss
>     German, and that the assumption of having "Alemanic" listed as a
>     name is that some people use that label to refer to specifically
>     to Swiss German. If the latter assumption is incorrect (which
>     appears to be what Mark is saying, then that is a change that the
>     JAC should consider.
>
>      
>
>     But if Martin's comment is the supporting evidence, then I still
>     find Martin's comment to be unclear. It's clear to me what Mark is
>     saying; it's not clear to me if Martin is saying the same thing.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Peter Constable
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *From:* mark.edward.davis at gmail.com
>     <mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com>
>     [mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com
>     <mailto:mark.edward.davis at gmail.com>] *On Behalf Of *Mark Davis*
>     Sent:* Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:07 AM*
>     To:* Peter Constable*
>     Cc:* Håvard Hjulstad; iso639-2 at loc.gov <mailto:iso639-2 at loc.gov>;
>     LTRU Working Group; zaiitov at gmail.com <mailto:zaiitov at gmail.com>;
>     ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee; ietf-languages at iana.org
>     <mailto:ietf-languages at iana.org>; iso639 at dkuug.dk
>     <mailto:iso639 at dkuug.dk>*
>     Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>      
>
>     Alemanic refers to a broader group of dialects than "Swiss German"
>     (aka Schwyzertuesch) does. So listing them as it does is
>     problematic; it's like listing
>
>     ar Arabic; Egyptian Arabic
>
>     Personally, I don't care whether it is resolved to be
>
>     Alemanic (including Swiss German)
>     // which is what 639-3 seems to be pointing to
>
>     or
>
>     Swiss German (a particular variant of Alemanic)
>     // which is what the code (gsw) seems to be pointing to
>
>     But we need some clarity as to what is meant by the code.
>
>     Mark
>
>     On 11/30/06, *Peter Constable* <_petercon at microsoft.com_
>     <mailto:petercon at microsoft.com> > wrote:
>
>     Martin's comment is somewhat vague: varieties spoken on either
>     side of the border are very similar, et "as soon as you cross the
>     border it's very clearly no longer Swiss German". Does that mean
>     that what is spoken across the border is clearly a different
>     language, or that the label "Swiss German" is clearly not used?
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Peter
>
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *From:* Mark Davis [mailto: _mark.davis at icu-project.org_
>     <mailto:mark.davis at icu-project.org>] *
>     Sent:* Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:00 AM*
>     To:* Håvard Hjulstad; _iso639-2 at loc.gov_ <mailto:iso639-2 at loc.gov> *
>     Cc:* LTRU Working Group; _zaiitov at gmail.com_
>     <mailto:zaiitov at gmail.com> ; ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee;
>     _ietf-languages at iana.org _ <mailto:ietf-languages at iana.org>;
>     _iso639 at dkuug.dk_ <mailto:iso639 at dkuug.dk>*
>     Subject:* [Ltru] Alemanic & Swiss German
>
>      
>
>     ISO 639-2 (on
>     _http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php_) lists
>     the following:
>
>     gsw             Alemani; Swiss German      alémanique
>
>     However, there is a "c" missing from Alemanic, and Swiss German is
>     not the same as Alemanic: Swiss German is a type of Alemanic, but
>     there are other types that are not the same as Swiss German.
>
>     Quoting Martin Duerst:
>
>     "Yes, Swabian is clearly Alemanic. Alemanic and Swiss German are not
>     the same. There are very close similarities between some dialects in
>     the north of Switzerland and across the border in Germany, but as
>     soon as you cross the border, it's very clearly no longer Swiss
>     German. A label such as "Alemanic; Swiss German", assuming that
>     both are the same, is clearly wrong. If it's something like
>     "Alemanic; includes Swiss German", that would be okay."
>
>     Can this be corrected so that it does not continue to mislead people?
>
>     Mark Davis
>



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