<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I think it might be rather hard for the IRI cases because strings that appear after the domain name (or URN) in an HTTP expression have little limitation. In fact, there are lots of applications that try to be smart about recognizing domain names for email or URLs - and guess wrong, create inappropriate links, etc. anything of the form "www...." often gets picked up as a domain name and some domain names without the "www" are not marked as web links...<div><br></div><div>vint</div><div><br><div><div>On Feb 14, 2010, at 11:31 PM, Abdulrahman I. ALGhadir wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">A question about this:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: black; ">>However, it is possible and conformant to UBA to have a higher level protocol that reorders labels in a domain name, >and in the path, and in the query, because it allows for such specialized overrides specifically. So you could take the >following internal string with characters from left to right</span></span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">How hard is it to make higher level(a standard sort of) either to be part of Unicode or something else for recognizing strings of type <something>@<something> , <protocol>://<something> ,.. all of IRI strings?.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black; ">Abdulrahman,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0cm; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mark Davis ?<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>14/Feb/2010 11:23 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Michel Suignard<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Shawn Steele; Slim Amamou; Abdulrahman I. ALGhadir;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>; Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Protocol Action: 'Right-to-left scripts for IDNA' to Proposed Standard<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">A few comments on remarks here:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Well as we know the IDNA protocol didn't adapt </span></span><span class="il"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204); background-position: initial initial; ">bidi</span></span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> algorithm (UAX #9) fully. They disallowed all </span></span><span class="il"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204); background-position: initial initial; ">bidi</span></span><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "> markers (LRM,RLM,...) which are they used to solve problems from this kind.</span></span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">> <span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Well I don't think so it can be done in UAX#9 (well if URI has its own rules) the UAX#9 does know about the nature of characters (Neutral,RTL,LTR,week..) the context direction etc.. and thus there are possible ways to fix this issues in UAX#9 rather than IDNA itself.</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Changing UAX#9 (aka UBA) at this point would be very difficult, because of stability concerns. We've seen before where very minor changes to it have caused many problems for users, because it changes the layout of existing documents. While not impossible, one would have to make a very good case for the change, and be prepared to demonstrate, with compelling data, that the benefit would be worth the cost.</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">The UBA was designed for plain text, not special syntax. And no matter how it was structured, it was always clear that one would need to be able to override the default; to that end, the marks and overrides were added. Because those are disallowed in IDNA, this tool is not available, however. The reason to not allow those in IDNA was because of the opportunity for constructing, artificially, very confusable IRIs.</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">(BTW Looking back at it, one of the problems with the UBA was that it tried to do too much. There is a tension between heuristics and predictability, and if we could go back in time and redo it, one of the things I'd change would be to reduce the heuristics, especially around numbers, so as to make it more predictable for users.)</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">However, it is possible and conformant to UBA to have a higher level protocol that reorders labels in a domain name, and in the path, and in the query, because it allows for such specialized overrides specifically. So you could take the following internal string with characters from left to right</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">http://a.B.C.d/e/F/G/h?i=J&K=l&M=n&o=P</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">and have them display</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">...F/e/d.C.B.a//:http</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">This would be possible, but is not necessarily a good idea. The problem comes in the interaction between those environments that (a) look for IRIs and handle them this way, and (b) environments that don't parse for IRIs, or don't recognize them or their fragments, or don't display them in the 'new' way once they have them. There is already the issue of display being different in RTL vs LTR paragraphs; you don't want typing in one environment within RTL to give yet different results than in another within RTL.</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">And we know that recognizing IRIs (and fragments thereof) occurring in plain text is difficult. You don't want<a href="http://PAYPAL.JOE.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">PAYPAL.JOE.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>to appear as<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://PAYPAL.JOE.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">PAYPAL.JOE.com</a> in my email, and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://JOE.PAYPAL.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">JOE.PAYPAL.com</a> in the address bar, and so on.</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">So any design for having a special ordering for IRI BIDI elements has to take a host of issues into account. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but it is a big job, and any transition has be be extremely carefully considered. Various people in Unicode have considered it at one time or another, but we've just never seen a clear path forward.</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Mark</span></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div><pre>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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