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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’m concerned that this proposal merely obscures the compatibility problem and further delays complete adoption of the characters.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’ve stuck some comments and emphasis in Mark’s scenarios.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-Shawn<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no [mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis ?<br><b>Sent:</b> , 08, 2009 7:57<br><b>To:</b> Martin J. Dürst<br><b>Cc:</b> idna-update@alvestrand.no; John C Klensin; Erik van der Poel<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: MAYBE-TRANSITIONAL, a historical tale<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div><h1><a name=TOC-Scenarios></a><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Scenarios<o:p></o:p></span></h1><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Let's see what happens with fußball.xxx over time, where xxx is some registry (eg .de, .<a href="http://blogspot.com">blogspot.com</a>, or others). Background: essentially all browsers and other major implementations are planning to map for compatibility. We'll look at browsers, but this also applies to email, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><h2><a name=TOC-Early-2010-just-as-IDNA2008-is-appr></a><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Early 2010 (just as IDNA2008 is approved)<o:p></o:p></span></h2><h3><a name=TOC-At-this-time-the-world-browsers-are></a><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>At this time the world browsers are 100% IDNA2003<o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>browsers map fußball.xxx to fussball.xxx.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>registries can start accepting eszett, and <span style='color:#1F497D;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>*<b>SHOULD</b>*</span> bundle with ss.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Obviously .at & .de will bundle, they’ve said so. I would fully expect that most of the generic blog/photo/space type lower zones will completely ignore the problem unless it’s shoved in their face, in which case 2 things can happen:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>a)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Users can register fussball.somezone.de, and access with the 100% 2003 browsers with fu</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>βball.somezone.de will succeed. They won’t realize that somezone isn’t acting as recommended.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>b)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Users could register fuβball.somezone.de and it won’t work. They may or may not figure out what’s going on. Some zones could end up with an inaccessible account. (The user just paired their email address to xn--something.somezone.de, and since the browser can’t go to <a href="http://xn--something.somezone.de/admin">http://xn--something.somezone.de/admin</a>, then can’t close the account or anything else. Customer support may be very difficult. Yes this has happened. The only “fix” is to try again with a different user account. Hopefully the zone would eventually fix this)</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=3 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>fußball shows up as fussball in the address bar<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=3 type=1><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>note: it is only by convention that fussball is seen in the address bar in this case; a browser could also display fußball, as in UTS46.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></ol><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=4 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>results:<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=4 type=1><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>if the registry bundles, both fußball.xxx and fussball.xxx go to the same owner.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>if the registry doesn't bundle, both fußball.xxx and fussball.xxx go to the same owner.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></ol><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=5 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>The odd IDNA2008 browser that doesn't map just fails, because ß is not PVALID; it doesn't take fußball.xxx to a different location than the vast majority of browsers.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></div><h2><a name=TOC-In-2013></a><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>In 2013<o:p></o:p></span></h2><h3><a name=TOC-At-this-time-the-world-browsers-are1></a><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>At this time the world browsers are 50% IDNA2003, 50% IDNA2008<o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><div><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l6 level1 lfo4'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>same as above. No ambiguity in results.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Note that on zones that do not bundle we still have the same situation: fu</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>ssball.somezone.de will appear to work when accessed as fuβball.somezone.de. Also someone “planning ahead” further than the zone admin could register fuβball.somezone.de planning to hijack the name when 2016 happens.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><h2><a name=TOC-In-2016-Feb></a><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>In 2016 Feb<o:p></o:p></span></h2><h3><a name=TOC-At-this-time-the-world-browsers-are2></a><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>At this time the world browsers are 1% IDNA2003, 99% IDNA2008<o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>99% of browsers switch to not mapping fußball.xxx.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Registries no longer need to bundle; they can have different owners for fußball.xxx and fussball.xxx.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>fußball shows up as fußball in the address bar<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>results:<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=4 type=1><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level2 lfo5'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>if the registry bundles, both fußball.xxx and fussball.xxx go to the same owner.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level2 lfo5'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>if the registry doesn't bundle, fußball.xxx and fussball.xxx go to different owners.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></ol><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=5 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>The odd IDNA2003 browser that is left goes to the wrong location for the affected languages; people that use them need to upgrade.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Now there are suddenly several interesting issues:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo8'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>a)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>Users of .de and .at are probably oblivious since the names are bundled.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo8'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>b)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>Browsers with a bug are finally revealed when German speaking users suddenly go somewhere else (or fail) (and I didn’t even opt-in to today’s update! And patch Tuesday isn’t on the 1<sup>st</sup>! (That one hopefully wouldn’t have a bug, but you get the idea))<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo8'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>c)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>The person that registered fussball.somezone.de in early 2010 and observed it “working” with fuβball.somezone.de (so nobody’s ever even used fussball for lookup), suddenly gets broken because somezone isn’t bundling.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo8'><![if !supportLists]><span style='color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>d)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>The troublemaker who thought ahead and registered fuβball.somezone.de and patiently waited suddenly is able to hijack the site.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I really appreciate that Mark’s trying to figure out a way to solve the problem, and I feel bad since we usually have similar views, but I think that Mark’s proposal has enough problems that it doesn’t really help. In short, I see a few impacts:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>For completely compliant registries/browsers, it delays adoption of the new characters for 6 years. Although people in Germany may “deal”, that seems blocking for the Greek Final Sigma.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>For .de and .at there’s zero impact (except the delay) over just making them PVALID right now. .de & .at have already stated their intent to bundle, so the transition syntax isn’t helpful to them. This is true of any compliant registry/zone operator.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>If you’re not compliant it seems that there’re two reasons why:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level2 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>You don’t care, in which case any “pain” is just delayed 6 years.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level2 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>o<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>You don’t know, in which case any “pain” is also just delayed 6 years.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>This transition doesn’t help with “caring” or “knowing” because there’s no feedback. Until 2016, everything still “works”, so the zone operators and end-users will continue to be oblivious, until it breaks in 2016.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>For knowledgeable people of nefarious intent, there’s an opportunity to discover the problem and figure out a way to take advantage of the 2016 transition date.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>There’s a potential for bugs on the client side. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>Currently there are some links that would break by making these PVALID. Educated zone operators (.de & .at) can fix these without waiting 6 years. That leaves some number of potentially breaking links from unknowing zone operators. IMO waiting 6 years merely increases the number of possible breaking links. So it seems that the break would be *<b>worse</b>* in 2016 than now.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-family:Symbol;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>·<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'>For zones that intentionally distinguish between ss and β, this does provide some window of opportunity to get (some, not all of) the legacy browsers out of the system. Given that the zones that care intend to bundle this seems of marginal utility at best. Even if it was interesting, they’d still have to bundle until 2016, so the distinction couldn’t be made until then, and by then they’d probably have a large mass of bundled forms.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In short, it seems to me that this merely delays the pain, and complicates the pain points. I would rather see a clean breaking change in IDNA2008 with no mitigation of the break. I’d have to think about it and consider what the rest of the community thinks, but IE/Windows may feel like the risk is lower by just treating PVALID_AFTER_2015 as PVALID.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-Shawn<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(Rest of Mark’s mail for reference)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Here's a modified proposal, a bit rough yet.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Live page: <a href="http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/idna/transition-proposal">http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/idna/transition-proposal</a><o:p></o:p></p><h1><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Problem<o:p></o:p></span></h1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>We would like to have the 4 deviation characters be valid, at some point. The key problem is that we don't want current URLs in web pages, etc. to go to two different locations depending on the browser, nor do we want <a href="mailto:joe@fu%C3%9Fball.com">joe@fußball.com</a> to go <i>sometimes</i> to <a href="mailto:joe@fu%C3%9Fball.com">joe@fußball.com</a> and <i>sometimes</i> to <a href="mailto:joe@fussball.com">joe@fussball.com</a>. Even once IDNA2008 is approved, for a long time a majority of the implementations will still be IDNA2003, so this also goes for new label registrations during the transition period.<o:p></o:p></span></p><h1><a name=TOC-Proposal></a><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Proposal<o:p></o:p></span></h1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>IDNA2008 changes as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>The 4 deviation characters get the property PVALID_AFTER_2015<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>The requirements are:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l8 level2 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>On registration, PVALID_AFTER_2015 is equivalent to PVALID<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l8 level2 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>On lookup, PVALID_AFTER_2015 is treated as DISALLOWED up until 2016 Jan 1, 00:00:00 GMT, and treated as PVALID thereafter.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></ol><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=2 type=1><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l8 level3 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Implementations must not map the characters after the switchover date.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></ol></ol><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=3 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l8 level2 lfo1'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>Implementations that map the characters before that date, must map as in IDNA2003.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></ol><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>The goal is to <o:p></o:p></span></p><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>allow the 4 character to become valid, as soon as possible; <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2'><span style='font-family:"Garamond","serif"'>avoid the 'nightmare' scenario of the same URL going to two different locations, as much as possible.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol></ol><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>