<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">one reason for making the characters PVALID is to allow registries to bundle registrations if they wish to achieve the same effect as mapping, but without the mapping.<div>At least some of the WG, perhaps a majority, has tried to eliminate the need for protocol-level mapping.</div><div><br></div><div>vint</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Nov 30, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Shawn Steele wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Sorry for the partial sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">And that’s the problem<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">J</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">In Switzerland users would certainly expect eszett to map to ss. In Germany and Austria they wouldn’t be too surprised by the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">So if, in the “contextual user interface” (& IDNA2003), the eszett is mapped to ss, then there’s no point to having it be PVALID. So the problem here is that the lack of mapping IS related to the PVALID decision. And that’s the big change from IDNA2003 that’s causing problems.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">If there is no mapping, then PVALID makes a little bit of sense. If you want discrete, unique ID’s for IRI’s, then I’m not sure you want fussball and fu</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">βball to go to different places. If you do want mapping at some level, then mapping these and keeping IDNA2003 behavior is logical.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">So I think these behavior of these 2 characters also depends on the mapping behavior. IDNA2008 took a different direction in mapping, and that led to this behavior for these characters. IDNA2003 went a different direction with mapping and that led to a different place.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">-Shawn<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Vint Cerf [<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:vint@google.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>, 30, 2009 1:51<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Shawn Steele<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Mark Davis ☕; Harald Alvestrand;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>; lisa Dusseault<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Consensus Call on Latin Sharp S and Greek Final Sigma<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">the distinction is not between mapping.<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">the distinction is between allowing or not allowing these two characters as PVALID.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Mapping is not part of the IDNA2008 proposed standard. The mapping document and other references to mapping in rationale are not normative. Mapping may very well occur in consequence of contextual user interface treatments but such handling is outside the scope of the base standard.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">vint<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:45 AM, Shawn Steele wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">I agree with Mark that this is very badly worded. Also, as Mark alludes, the distinction is between mapping.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">(2) Both characters should be disallowed. (and mapped as in 2003).<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">One would expect a swiss person typing "fussball.de" to continue to get to the expected site, even though the spelling isn't perfect by "de" standards. The ONLY place where a distinction is interesting is in Germany and Austria, however Mark points out both of those NICs are against this change.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">-Shawn<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; "><span style="color: black; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><div id="divRpF1985"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "><a href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>] on behalf of Mark Davis ☕ [<a href="mailto:mark@macchiato.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mark@macchiato.com</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, November 29, 2009 9:35 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Harald Alvestrand<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>; Vint Cerf; lisa Dusseault<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Consensus Call on Latin Sharp S and Greek Final Sigma</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="color: black; ">(2) Both characters should be DISALLOWED<br><i><br>I think the way the question is phrased may mislead some people on this list.</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>The<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b><i>real</i></b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>choice is between having them mapped to "ss" vs having them distinguished from "ss", because all browser vendors are planning to provide mappings, and I think all other vendors will be drawn down that path, for compatibility with the browsers.<br><br>This standard is not written in a vacuum; whether or not eszett and final-sigma would have been a better choice 7 years ago, billions of current browsers and other programs use the 2003 policies, and those would take years to change. In the meantime, a change of this magnitude from 2003 will cause significant problems.<br><br>The people on this list need to carefully consider their positions, since they will not have to live with the compatibility and security problems; German and Greek speakers will. And it is telling that representatives like the German and Austrian NICs are in favor of continuing the 2003 policies of mapping the characters.<br><br>Mark<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>