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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear
Vint,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sorry
for the Typo … yes you are correct the intended example are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>1 - Mixing between scripts in one domain name where label1
from a script that has RTL chars while label2 from another script that has LTR
chars/digits (e.g. xyz.ABC.xyz where xyz are LTR chars and ABC are RTL chars)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>2- If a label begins with a number while the previous
label ends with a number (e.g. AA2.3BB.CC where ABC are RTL chars)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I
agree that the suggested solution may requires “inter-label examination”
but again that was a solution that came to my mind and think there might be
other ways to solve the issue. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Even
if what I have suggested was the only solution that can solve the problem I
hope the group will reconsider their direction since it will free lots of false
positive related to this issue. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>What
I want to say that we should do our best to minimize the number of prevented
domains that are not part of this problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>With best regards,</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Raed I. Al-Fayez</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>------------------------------------------</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Senior IT Projects Specialist,
M.Sc, PMP</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Saudi Network Information
Center (SaudiNIC) <br>
Communication and Information Technology Commission (CITC)</span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tel: + 966-1-2639235
- Fax: + 966-1-2639393</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.nic.net.sa/">http://www.nic.net.sa</a></span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Vint Cerf
[mailto:vint@google.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 14 October 2009 10:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Raed Al-Fayez<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Abdulrahman I. ALGhadir; idna-update@alvestrand.no<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: RTL labels and numbers?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Raed,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>doesn't your solution require inter-label examination? We
debated that and concluded that the complexity was too high to implement. The
DNAME problem also creates the potential for surprises in spite of inter-label
testing. So even though your examples are clear (well there are some
problems - see below), if the solution requires inter-label checking, we've
seriously debated that and concluded not to require it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Maybe I am not understanding your examples as well as I
should.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>did you mean to say:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>1 - Mixing between scripts in one domain name label1 from a
script that has RTL chars while label2 from another script that has LTR chars
(e.g. xyz.ABC.xyz where xyz are LTR chars and ABC are RTL chars)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>vint<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Oct 14, 2009, at 2:12 AM, Raed Al-Fayez wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear All,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is clear to us the risks with the labels which starts with
digits and have RTL characters. But here I want to tackle the issue from a
different angle:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>By denying all domains that start with a number we are
preventing lots of valid option to the Arabic users (or anyone who use RTL
language)!</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think we can optimize the protocol to only deny the cases that
might make problems that might happen.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>For example these domain names does not have any problems in the
display:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>AAA.3BBB.CCC
(Where A, B and C are RTL chars)</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A3A.3BB3CCC
(Where A, B and C are RTL chars)</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The problem mainly occur some domain names if:</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:-.25in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1-</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mixing between scripts in one
domain name lable1 from a script that have RTL chars while lable2 from another
script that have RTL chars (e.g. xyz.ABC.xyz where xyz are LRT chars and ABC
are RTL chars)</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:-.25in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>2-</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If a label begins with a
number while the previous label ends with a number (e.g. AA2.3BB.CC where ABC
are RTL chars)</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Other than these two rare cases I think there are no display
problem (at least from the Arabic-Script point of view).</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think there are many solution that can solve this problem..A
quick one that pops in my mind (which can be implemented at the protocol level)
is let the protocol check the labels that contains RTL chars and only deny the
above two cases and allow other valid domains.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I hope the group try to help more in this issue …</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thanks ..</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>With best regards,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Raed I. Al-Fayez</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>------------------------------------------</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Senior IT Projects Specialist, M.Sc, PMP</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Saudi Network Information Center (SaudiNIC)<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>
Communication and Information Technology Commission (CITC)</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Tel: + 966-1-2639235 - Fax: + 966-1-2639393</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.nic.net.sa/">http://www.nic.net.sa</a></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-width:initial;border-color:initial'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> </span></span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a
href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no">idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>
[<a href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no">mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>]<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Vint Cerf<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Tuesday, 13 October
2009 4:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Abdulrahman I.
ALGhadir<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a
href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: RTL labels
and numbers?</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>for the most part, the IDNA2008
specification does place a great deal of responsibility on<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>the registry but for some cases,
it was considered important to bar particularly confusing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>situations at the protocol level.
This was debated substantially during the course of the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>development of IDNA2008.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>On Oct 13, 2009, at 4:15 AM,
Abdulrahman I. ALGhadir wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hello,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Well while I was reading draft-ietf-idnabis-bidi-06.txt I found
this:</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre><span style='color:black'>“4.3. Strings with numbers<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> By requiring that the first or last character of a string be category<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> R or AL, RFC 3454 prohibited a string containing right-to-left<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> characters from ending with a number.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'> Consider the strings ALEF 5 (HEBREW LETTER ALEF + DIGIT FIVE) and 5<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> ALEF. Displayed in an LTR context, the first one will be displayed<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> from left to right as 5 ALEF (with the 5 being considered right-to-<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> left because of the leading ALEF), while 5 ALEF will be displayed in<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> exactly the same order (5 taking the direction from context).<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> Clearly, only one of those should be permitted as a registered label,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'> but barring them both seems unnecessary.”<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Why permitting done on the protocol level ? shouldn’t this
be done at registry level?</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Ex. If someone wants to register 3COM (COM is a RTL word) registry
will register 3COM for him/her and will lock COM3.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>At least this will give users the choice for picking not forcing
them on one type?</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'>Thank you,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre><span style='color:black'>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>Disclaimer:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>This message and its attachment, if any, are confidential and may contain legally<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>sender immediately and delete this message and its attachment, if any, from your<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>system. You should not copy this message or disclose its contents to any other<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>person or use it for any purpose. Statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>are those of the sender, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Communications<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>and Information Technology Commission (CITC). CITC accepts no liability for damage<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span
style='color:black'>caused by this email.<o:p></o:p></span></pre></div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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