<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">that sounds right to me, too, Mark.<div><br></div><div>v</div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 23, 2009, at 10:28 AM, Mark Davis ⌛ wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">I think the simplest course of action is just require the character before to be Hebrew; that is a sufficient limitation on usage.<br><br clear="all">Mark<br> <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 02:41, Matitiahu Allouche <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matial@il.ibm.com">matial@il.ibm.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> I totally agree with Ken's analysis of Gershayim usage, and with his<br> simplified pseudo-code.<br> <br> However, I seem to remember somebody mentioning using Gershayim at the<br> boundary between preceding Hebrew letters and succeeding letters from<br> another script. Personally, I see no need for this, and such a label<br> would probably be disallowed anyway by the rules for Bidi domain names.<br> Still, if anybody thinks there is such a use case, he/she should speak<br> now.<br> <br> Shalom (Regards), Mati<br> Bidi Architect<br> Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts<br> IBM Israel<br> Phone: +972 2 5888802 Fax: +972 2 5870333 Mobile: +972 52<br> 2554160<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Kenneth Whistler <<a href="mailto:kenw@sybase.com">kenw@sybase.com</a>><br> Sent by: <a href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no">idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a><br> 22/07/2009 05:07<br> Please respond to<br> Kenneth Whistler <<a href="mailto:kenw@sybase.com">kenw@sybase.com</a>><br> <br> <br> To<br> <a href="mailto:patrik@frobbit.se">patrik@frobbit.se</a><br> cc<br> <a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>, <a href="mailto:kenw@sybase.com">kenw@sybase.com</a><br> Subject<br> tables-06b.txt: A.8 Gershayim<br> <div><div></div><div class="h5"><br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Patrik,<br> <br> With my general concerns about the pseudo-code<br> out of the way, I'll now take up the issue of<br> how to express the rule set for A.8. HEBREW PUNCTUATION<br> GERSHAYIM.<br> <br> Currently, the relevant parts of the Appendix state:<br> <br> Overview:<br> The script of the preceding character and the subsequent<br> character, if any, MUST be Hebrew.<br> ...<br> Rule Set:<br> False;<br> If Script(Before(cp)) .eq. Hebrew And<br> LastChar .eq. cp Then True;<br> If Script(Before(cp)) .eq. Hebrew And<br> Script(After(cp)) .eq. Hebrew Then True;<br> <br> First let's consider what the appropriate context for<br> the gershayim are in ordinary Hebrew text usage.<br> <br> The gershayim are used to indicate that a word is to<br> be read as an acronym, rather than as a regular word.<br> Its position in the acronym is between the next-to-last<br> and the last letters of the non-inflected form of the<br> acronym. What that means is that it will be preceded<br> by one or more letters, and will be followed by at<br> least one letter (and possibly more, if the acronym is<br> inflected). But it shouldn't occur at the beginning or<br> end of a word.<br> <br> The gershayim are also used to mark numerical usage of<br> Hebrew letters, but in the case where a number is<br> represented by two or more Hebrew numerals. So again,<br> in that case, it would be internal to the numeral,<br> and not at the beginning or end.<br> <br> Then there is a usage to indicate transliteration of<br> a foreign word -- but again the position is word-internal,<br> between the next-to-last and the last character of the<br> word.<br> <br> From this summary, it would seem that in *normal* usage,<br> gershayim should always occur internal to a word. If<br> Mati agrees with that general characterization, then I<br> believe the context we need to summarize in the Overview<br> is more constrained:<br> <br> Overview:<br> The script of the preceding character and the subsequent<br> character MUST be Hebrew.<br> <br> And I think *more* constrained is good in this case, as<br> internal to a Hebrew word is much less likely to cause<br> either confusion with quotation marks or any bidi quirks.<br> <br> If we agree on that more constrained statement of the<br> intended context, then the Rule Set itself can be<br> simplified to:<br> <br> Rule Set:<br> False;<br> If Script(Before(cp)) .eq. Hebrew And<br> Script(After(cp)) .eq. Hebrew Then True;<br> <br> Note that with my restatement of the pseudo-code, the<br> edge cases of gershayim at the beginning or end of a label<br> will automatically be excluded, because Before(cp)<br> would evaluate to Undefined at the start of a label<br> and After(cp) would evaluate to Undefined at the end of<br> a label.<br> <br> I believe this restatement and simplification of A.8<br> would be of service to the IDNA2008 users.<br> <br> --Ken<br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Idna-update mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Idna-update@alvestrand.no">Idna-update@alvestrand.no</a><br> <a href="http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update" target="_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update</a><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br> _______________________________________________<br>Idna-update mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Idna-update@alvestrand.no">Idna-update@alvestrand.no</a><br>http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/idna-update<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>