Re the deaccenting of uppercase letters.<br><br>On the registrar side it can be handled with bundling (annoying as that is), but on the client side it is quite tricky. The problem is that deaccenting of uppercase letters loses information, so when mapping back to lowercase, there is no indication of what the accents would have been.<br>
<br>So take the example of ΧΡΗΣΗΣ.gr. There is no algorithmic way to know whether that would have come from <a href="http://xn--jxas2ajbt.gr">χρήσης.gr</a> or <a href="http://xn--jxar3ajbt.gr">χρησής.gr</a> or even <a href="http://xn--sxaa2ajbt.gr">χρησης.gr</a> without having language-specific knowledge in the client implementation. The only even possibly feasible way to handle that, as far as I can tell, would be to special-case Greek characters by mapping so as to always remove their accents. In that case, ΧΡΗΣΗΣ.gr, ΧΡΉΣΗΣ.gr, <a href="http://xn--jxas2ajbt.gr">χρήσης.gr</a>, <a href="http://xn--jxar3ajbt.gr">χρησής.gr</a> all map to <a href="http://xn--sxaa2ajbt.gr">χρησησ.gr</a>. Unlike the final sigma, however, there is no way for the client side to map from the unaccented version back to an accented version (except in the special case of a single vowel), so Greeks would always see <a href="http://xn--sxaa2ajbt.gr">χρησης.gr</a> -- I suspect you'd find that sub-optimal.<br>
<br clear="all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 03:02, Vaggelis Segredakis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:segred@ics.forth.gr">segred@ics.forth.gr</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EL">
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">Dear Mark and Tina,</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">The original IDNA2003
mapping has made life easier for us on the final sigma -> sigma issue but
the example Mark presented brings forth another very big problem we have faced
with that version: In Greek you never put a hyphenation mark in a word
consisting only by capital letters. The correct uppercase for </span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">χρήσης</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">.gr (<a href="http://xn--jxas2ajbt.gr" target="_blank">xn--jxas2ajbt.gr</a>)
is </span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">ΧΡΗΣΗΣ</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">.gr</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">(<a href="http://xn--sxaa2ajbt.gr" target="_blank">xn--sxaa2ajbt.gr</a>) </span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">and not </span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">ΧΡΉΣΗΣ</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">.gr which was accepted by IDNA2003 as the only
equivalent.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">We started there and then
to use bundling options to bundle DNS tags to make them work as our language is
normally used where it should have been the other way round. IDNA tags should be
able to represent languages as they are used. It happens in Latin character
languages.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">I would welcome a
solution that takes this second issue into account as well and further
simplifies life for Greek users who get a poor experience of the IDNs. We had
already a meeting with our Telecommunications regulator, our Government and the
.CY registry and we tried to raise a common position on this new solution of
the final sigma representation as a separate character. The results of this
meeting are pending but from my understanding a more global solution on these
issues that haunt the Greek IDNs would be more welcome than patches on a
problematic protocol.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">My belief is that if a
broader solution would be welcomed by this working group, our LIC would be interested
to participate in a broad public discussion for a consensus in how we wish our
IDNs to operate. The question is if this WG is ready to bend some rules and change
some former decisions because it looks that xn— might be a thing of the
past soon.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-US">Vaggelis</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="EN-US">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;" lang="EN-US">
<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target="_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Davis<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 25, 2009
1:18 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Tina Dam<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Vaggelis Segredakis;
<a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>; Vint Cerf; Sotiris Panaretou; Panagiotis
Papaspiliopoulos; Euripides Zervanos<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Final Sigma (was: RE:
Esszett, Final Sigma, ZWJ and ZWNJ)</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The original IDNA2003
mapping was chosen for a purpose: it allows <a href="http://xn--jxas2ajbt.gr" target="_blank">χρήσης.gr</a> and ΧΡΉΣΗΣ.gr to both go
to the same page, without requiring bundling. (Note the two different kinds of
lowercase sigmas.)<br>
<br>
I still think a better approach would be to retain the mapping for
compatibility, but specify that when converting back from punycode, trailing
sigmas be transformed into final sigmas. For example, in the address bar you
could type ΧΡΉΣΗΣ.gr, and when you went to the page you'd see <a href="http://xn--jxas2ajbt.gr" target="_blank">χρήσης.gr</a> in the
address bar.<br>
<br>
The only downside I can see is that it would encourage Greek domain names to
use interior hyphens where necessary to get the sigma right. So you would want
to register<br>
<br>
<a href="http://xn----tlbbisas8eesdbp8a.gr" target="_blank">ευρείας-χρήσης.gr</a><br>
instead of<br>
ευρείασ<a href="http://xn--jxas2ajbt.gr" target="_blank">χρήσης.gr</a><br>
<br>
But that's not a big downside compared with the alternatives.<br>
<br clear="all">
Mark<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 14:34, Tina Dam <<a href="mailto:tina.dam@icann.org" target="_blank">tina.dam@icann.org</a>> wrote:</span></font></p>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Vaggelis,</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I totally understand the frustration and
concern that you are expressing. I am wondering though if it is not better to
get this corrected now, so that the Greek script/language is functioning
correctly in the Internet/with domain names, than it is to have this half
solution that really makes things worse the larger the volume of domain names
that are registered? That is both under .GR, but also other TLDs that might
introduce the Greek characters (.CY is the most natural existing TLD that comes
to mind in addition to .GR, but off course also gTLDs, and even more
importantly as we move to the IDN TLDs).</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">As far as I see things this is not a
matter of mapping or no mappings, but in the case about the final sigma it is
the matter of a wrong decision being made in 2003, making </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">U+03A3 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER SIGMA -
always map into:</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">U+03C3 GREEK SMALL LETTER SIGMA - when
in fact (as you and your colleagues are well aware of and as you express below)
it often should be mapped into:</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">U+03C2 GREEK SMALL LETTER FINAL SIGMA</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">In other words, the mapping of the
Capital Sigma is not a one-to-one nor a global solution like for example the
mapping of Capital “A” to lower-case “a” is, and hence
this sigma-mapping should never have been introduced in the protocol in the
first place.</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">About solutions….I am wondering if
you are going to be at the Mexico meeting this following week and if so,
perhaps we can find a good time to chat further about it? (That would be with
my IDN hat on and ICANN hat of, since ICANN off course has nothing to do with
your policies).</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Tina</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font color="#1f497d" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><b><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> <a href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update-bounces@alvestrand.no</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Vaggelis Segredakis<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, February 24, 2009
2:41 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>;
'Vint Cerf'<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> 'Euripides Zervanos';
'Panagiotis Papaspiliopoulos'; 'Sotiris Panaretou'<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Esszett, Final Sigma,
ZWJ and ZWNJ</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Dear
Vint,</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">I
would love to say that we as the .gr Registry are enthusiastic about the
proposed solution (PVALID Final Sigma) but in reality we are quite skeptical. I
can clearly see the advantages of the use of a distinct final sigma. The
reality however is that the change is significant and the registry will have to
take measures to reduce the impact.</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">It
will be necessary for us (and I believe anyone who uses Esszett as well) to
“map” the two versions of the domain names ourselves to overcome
the fact that browsers and software do not change overnight and IDNA2003 and
IDNA2008 are incompatible.</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">In
Greek, a word that finishes with a final sigma in small characters when typed
in capital letters gets a normal capital sigma in the place of that final
sigma. Although you have prohibited Capital letters in IDNA2008 any browser
programmer will try to translate letter by letter a URL typed in capital. Most
possibly then he will translate a capital Sigma to sigma and not final sigma,
regardless of its position in the word. Why would a programmer try to learn
Greek grammar?</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">For
each final sigma in a domain name, the registrant will have to register a
variant with a lower sigma in that position as well and each variant that
occurs if you put more than one final sigma in a domain name. For 2 final
sigmas you will have 4 variants. If you add to this the tonos punctuation point
issue (in capital letters it is not used and this gives us two variants for each
domain name), you end up with sixteen variants for a single domain name with
two final sigmas (two words)!</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">We
already do bundling of the domain names. We will probably do it in the future, especially
if this proposed solution moves forward. If you have any other alternatives
though that could shed some new light on these issues, this might be a good
time to start discussing them. Even if this means a best practice document or
IDNAv2_2009, anything should be open to discussion.</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Best
Regards,</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Vaggelis
Segredakis</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Administrator
of the .GR Top Level Domain</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Institute
of Computer Science</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Foundation
for Research and Technology - Hellas</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Tel.
+30-281-0391450</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Fax
+30-281-0391451</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB">Email
<a href="mailto:segred@ics.forth.gr" target="_blank">segred@ics.forth.gr</a></span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<div style="border-style: none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color windowtext; border-width: medium medium 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 1pt;">
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Message:
3</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Date:
Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:14:04 -0500</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">From:
Vint Cerf <<a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a>></span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Subject:
Re: Esszett, Final Sigma, ZWJ and ZWNJ</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">To:
Mark Davis <<a href="mailto:mark@macchiato.com" target="_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>></span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Cc:
Paul Hoffman <<a href="mailto:phoffman@imc.org" target="_blank">phoffman@imc.org</a>>,
Andrew Sullivan</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">
<<a href="mailto:ajs@shinkuro.com" target="_blank">ajs@shinkuro.com</a>>,
<a href="mailto:idna-update@alvestrand.no" target="_blank">idna-update@alvestrand.no</a>,
John C Klensin</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">
<<a href="mailto:klensin@jck.com" target="_blank">klensin@jck.com</a>></span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Message-ID:
<<a href="mailto:2C4BC1C5-3B45-46FA-AA6D-9A60D3C72B35@google.com" target="_blank">2C4BC1C5-3B45-46FA-AA6D-9A60D3C72B35@google.com</a>></span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="utf-8"</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Mark,</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">thanks
- I think what left me in an ambiguous state was the term "bits on the
wire". In your example, under the IDNA2003 mapping process, the
final sigma is mapped into ordinary sigma and THEN the resulting string is
looked up (after conversion to xn-- format using the punycode algorithm). The
two forms become identical prior to lookup. </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Under
the proposed IDNA2008 rules, the two strings remain distinct in both the
U-label and A-label format and thus look "different" on the wire and
unless other measures are taken (bundling, restricted registration, etc) it is
possible for the two domains to yield distinct results on lookup.</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Paul
- is that the picture you wanted to paint?</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">sorry
to be slow to see which bits you were comparing.</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">v</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Vint
Cerf</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Google</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">1818
Library Street, Suite 400</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">Reston,
VA 20190</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US">202-370-5637</span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:vint@google.com" target="_blank">vint@google.com</a></span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></font><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
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